MINERO

[Dell Winders]

http://treasureamerica.netfirms.com/phpbb/xx/gallery/data/503/minero.jpg
DELL, FIELD COMPARING THE MINERO, WITH OTHER REMOTE SENSING LOCATORS.

Carl, I could not find your tech report on Minero. Can you post some photos of the coil(s) , circuit board and inside the enclosure as you have done on other LRL products? Thanks! Dell

[Carl-NC]

Sure, no problem...

Here's the main PC board:

http://www.thunting.com/geotech/images/pdc1.jpg

There is a microcontroller, a piezo buzzer, some misc components, a "sensor" (top-center), and a "black box" (top-right). The large trace around the perimeter is a loop antenna, which would not be the least bit necessary if the device works according to Mineoro's claims. The oval trace around the sensor, and some components connected to it, are otherwise isolated from the rest of the circuitry, and do nothing.

The sensor is a piece of PVC pipe filled with epoxy:

http://www.thunting.com/geotech/images/sensor3.jpg

This is the one piece I did not have permission to dissect. But it functions as a proximity detector, as the device beeps when objects are about 1/2 inch away.

The black box revealed this nifty little circuit:

http://www.thunting.com/geotech/images/pdc2.jpg

I believe it is a simple regenerative receiver, used to pick up radio waves. I suspect the demonstrations I've heard about involve someone with an appropriate radio transmitter who can remotely cause the device to beep on command.

If anyone has a Mineoro they wish to sell, rent, or loan, I'll finish up my investigation and post a formal report.

- Carl

P.S. -- the device does not detect gold. Yes, I tried.

[Dell Winders]

Many Thanks! I haven't examined it closely but at first glance it looks like some cosmetic damage would be done trying to get inside the unit? For $8,000, I'm not that interested in knowing.

Being technically challenged and totally gullible about electronics, it would have been my guess that the trace around the circuit, and the trace around the sensor were both parts of the antenna system.

What kind of a sensor do you suspect might be behind the epoxy. Do you think it would cause the device to beep when receiving certain brodcast radio frequencies? That's looks like some comparative heavy duty wire coming out of a sensor?

The unit we are using doesn't require someone with a transmitter to cause it to beep on cue. In the conditions of this area we have subjected it to, it often beeps continously.

Another question, is there an output frequency, or does it appear to receive only?

Right now, I will reserve my opinion on it's merit in the field until I learn, and understand more about it.

Thanks for your input. The photos are very helpful. Dell

[Carl-NC]

Many Thanks! I haven't examined it closely but at first glance it looks like some cosmetic damage would be done trying to get inside the unit? For $8,000, I'm not that interested in knowing.
It's pretty easy to open.

Being technically challenged and totally gullible about electronics, it would have been my guess that the trace around the circuit, and the trace around the sensor were both parts of the antenna system.
Just the outer trace.

What kind of a sensor do you suspect might be behind the epoxy.
Don't know... if I were designing such a device to deceive someone, I would put a proximity sensor in it.

Do you think it would cause the device to beep when receiving certain brodcast radio frequencies? That's looks like some comparative heavy duty wire coming out of a sensor?
The outer loop & regenerative receiver could easily pick up broadcast frequencies.

The unit we are using doesn't require someone with a transmitter to cause it to beep on cue. In the conditions of this area we have subjected it to, it often beeps continously.
Yes, the one I had could do that, too.

Another question, is there an output frequency, or does it appear to receive only?
Receive only.

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

Carl, I appreciate the opinion. Do you mind if I cut and paste these photo's and remarks on TA, with a link, or would you prefer that I just provide a link to your site? Dell

[Esteban]

The "dissected" is the microcontroller version with an only potentiometer.

The PDC 205 and PDC 210 with two potentiometers that works in the limit is extremely sensitive. VERY. I agree the microcontroller/semiautomatic version (early PDC) is not good...


I don't know the performance of the 428 (in Dell's hand).


In this photo you can see the both knobs.

So, Carl's report is about the early microcontroller 1 knob model (several years out of the market).

[schatzsucher]

on which geophysical principle is the system based?

Is it a magnetometer?

[Esteban]

http://www.mineoro.com/tesouros/tesouro.htm

[schatzsucher]

that should be probably a joke

It´s a electronic LRL?

[Carl-NC]

Carl, I appreciate the opinion. Do you mind if I cut and paste these photo's and remarks on TA, with a link, or would you prefer that I just provide a link to your site? Dell

Whichever you prefer.

[Carl-NC]

The "dissected" is the microcontroller version with an only potentiometer.

The PDC 205 and PDC 210 with two potentiometers that works in the limit is extremely sensitive. VERY. I agree the microcontroller/semiautomatic version (early PDC) is not good...



I'll consider the possibility that adding a second potentiometer to a concept that simply does not work, might suddenly enable it to start working, no matter how remote that possibility is. However, I'll remain skeptical of Mineoro's claims, until I see one of their devices work in a fair test.

I have, in the past, offered my $25,000 challenge to Mineoro's US distributor. He declined. In July, I received an email from Mineoro:


Dear Mr. Moreland,

We would like to double-accept your challenge, as :

- MINEORO manufacturer of electronic LRL and
- SEGMAX manufacturer of mechanical inertial detectors by ionic and electrostatics fields (not dowsing)

- Our system of detection is by ionic fields and electrostatic fields.
- It is neither electromagnetic nor terrestrial magnetic or magnets.
- Our condition is that you have to publish results on your site and forums in the USA, and also we will publish on our site, and other international sites.
- All our search here in Brazil will be audio-taped and filmed.
- The inventors prefer that Mr. Carl Moreland himself be present as a Proctor or witness to attend a demostration of a new phenomenom in the area of science. If that could not be possible we also accept another person graduated in Electric Engineering or Electronics.
- We will need documents signed by Carl Moreland autenticated by legal authorities in the USA.
- The inventors , claimants, are called:
a) Jonas Paulo Fernandes Damásio (70)
b) Victor Alonso C. O´Campos (63)

- After the rain, the ionic electrostatic fields take from 2 to 5 days to recover to an ideal amplitude. Therefore it will be necessary that Proctors will be able to stay in Brazil approximately 10 to 15 days.

We would like to make clear that we are going to claim your challenge as two different companies, Mineoro and Segmax, with two different LRLs, and when successfully completing the tests, you will have to pay USD 25.000 to each of the different Claimant companies.

Looking forward to your news,

Best Regards,

JPF Damásio
Inventor
MINEORO LONG RANGE DIRECTIONAL DETECTORS


Oddly, when I tried to reply, I discovered that my email address was being blocked. I used an alternate method, and wrote:


Mr. Damásio,

There is only one $25,000 prize available. The first LRL that can be demonstrated using a double-blind protocol will win the prize and, after that, no other money is being offered. Therefore, Mineoro and Segmax may apply, but if one wins the prize the other cannot.

Please explain the need to stay 10 to 15 days. The standard double-blind test, as described on my web site, takes only a few hours at the most.

Regards,
Carl


I have yet to hear back from them.

- Carl

[schatzsucher]

:D :D that is what I had meant

[schatzsucher]

@Carl:

send also so email on okm :)

[mineorogreece]

JUST TO LET YOU KNOW I HAVE RESEARCHED MINEORO DETECTORS VERY MUCH.I HAVE COME UP WITH THIS:
IT IS SCIENTIFIC INFORMATION THAT EVERY BURIED METAL GENERATES AN ANOMALY IN THE ELECTRIC AND MAGNETIC FIELD OF THE EARTH.
SECONDLY,I HAVE TAKEN APART THE PDC205 MODEL WITH 2 POTENTIOMETERS.HERE IS WHAT I FOUND AS A BIOMED ENGINEER THAT I AM:
THE IONIC CHAMBER OR SENSOR AS YOU SAY,IS MADE UP OF AN ANODE A CATHODE AND A GOLD LEAF IN BETWEEN.THE BLACKBOX CIRCUIT IS NOT A REGENARATIVE RADIO RECEIVER.WHAT IT DOES IS, IT SENDS A SQUARE PULSE AT 11HZ TO THE ANODE WHICH IS VERY SHARP AT ITS TIP, AND IT GENERATES A SPIKE ON THE GOLD LEAF WITHOUT TOUCHING IT,WHICH THEY CLAIM THAT IT RELEASES GOLD IONS IN THE CHAMBER WITH POSITIVE POLARITY.
WHAT THE EQUIPMENT ACTUALLY DOES IS THAT IT DETECTS THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH ,IT AMPLIFIES IT AND WHEN YOU CALIBRATE IT,IT ACTUALLY ADDS THE SIGNAL OF THE ELECTRIC FIELD AND THE OUTPUT OF THE IONIC CHAMBER TOGETHER AND EQUALIZES TO A CERTAIN LEVEL.
IF YOU DETECT GOLD IONS COMING FROM BURIED GOLD ,INSTANTLY THE DETECTOR WILL BEEP BECAUSE IT HAS SENSED A SMALL ARC IN THE IONIC CHAMBER BECAUSE THE IONS POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE INTERACT OR SHORT CIRCUIT TOGETHER.THAT IS HOW THIS UNIT WORKS.
THE CIRCUITS DO WORK AND I HAVE TESTED THEM EXTENSIVELY.THE ONLY PART I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY INFORMATION ABOUT IS THAT BURIED METALS RELEASE IONS OF THEMSELVES IN THE ATMOSPHERE IN VERY SMALL TRACES.THAT IS WHAT MINEORO CLAIMS TO BE THEIR DISCOVERY.THANK YOU

[Carl-NC]

I HAVE TAKEN APART THE PDC205 MODEL WITH 2 POTENTIOMETERS.HERE IS WHAT I FOUND AS A BIOMED ENGINEER THAT I AM:

Perhaps you could post some pics of what you found...

WHAT THE EQUIPMENT ACTUALLY DOES IS THAT IT DETECTS THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH ,IT AMPLIFIES IT AND WHEN YOU CALIBRATE IT,IT ACTUALLY ADDS THE SIGNAL OF THE ELECTRIC FIELD AND THE OUTPUT OF THE IONIC CHAMBER TOGETHER AND EQUALIZES TO A CERTAIN LEVEL.

If the device detects electric fields, then this would be very easy to test, by turning a nearby electric field on and off, and seeing if the device responds.

IF YOU DETECT GOLD IONS COMING FROM BURIED GOLD ,INSTANTLY THE DETECTOR WILL BEEP BECAUSE IT HAS SENSED A SMALL ARC IN THE IONIC CHAMBER BECAUSE THE IONS POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE INTERACT OR SHORT CIRCUIT TOGETHER.THAT IS HOW THIS UNIT WORKS.

An ion is an atom, literally... if gold continuously releases ions, then it is dissolving. And, the only way the chamber of the PDC can detect such an ion, is for the ion to physically enter the chamber. This is not possible.

Also, this implies that physical atoms must leave the gold target, come up out of the ground, and float across the atmosphere to the PDC. You would be at the mercy of the wind. And if these atoms could enter the chamber and recombine with generated ions, there would be no directional information in this action. The atoms could come from anywhere.

All of this adds up to: tain't likely.

THE ONLY PART I HAVE NOT FOUND ANY INFORMATION ABOUT IS THAT BURIED METALS RELEASE IONS OF THEMSELVES IN THE ATMOSPHERE IN VERY SMALL TRACES.THAT IS WHAT MINEORO CLAIMS TO BE THEIR DISCOVERY.THANK YOU

More of that amazing science that scientists have somehow overlooked.

- Carl

[schatzsucher]

it´s a new generation of diving rod

[mineorogreece]

HELLO CARL,
THANK YOU FOR YOUR POST.I WOULD LIKE TO SAY A FEW THINGS HERE.
FIRSTLY YOU SAID
QUOTE:
An ion is an atom, literally... if gold continuously releases ions, then it is dissolving. And, the only way the chamber of the PDC can detect such an ion, is for the ion to physically enter the chamber. This is not possible.

Also, this implies that physical atoms must leave the gold target, come up out of the ground, and float across the atmosphere to the PDC. You would be at the mercy of the wind. And if these atoms could enter the chamber and recombine with generated ions, there would be no directional information in this action. The atoms could come from anywhere.

All of this adds up to: tain't likely.

OK ,SCIENCE SAYS THAT ALL OBJECTS ON EARTH, AND THE METALS, -BURIED OR NOT-HAVE AN ION FIELD AROUND THEM,AND THIS CAN BE SEEN WITH AN ION DETECTOR.(SO IT IS NOT THAT GOLD IS DISSOLVING)
ALSO THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH DOES NOT SHIFT WITH WIND.
SECONDLY IONIC FIELDS AND ELECTROSTATIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC EASILY,THEY CANNOT GO THROUGH METAL BUT PLASTIC AND FIBERGLASS AND PVC THEY CAN.
THANK YOU ONCE AGAIN

[Carl-NC]

OK ,SCIENCE SAYS THAT ALL OBJECTS ON EARTH, AND THE METALS, -BURIED OR NOT-HAVE AN ION FIELD AROUND THEM,AND THIS CAN BE SEEN WITH AN ION DETECTOR.(SO IT IS NOT THAT GOLD IS DISSOLVING)

Can you show me where science says this? Can you tell me how long it takes for gold to start ionizing?

ALSO THE ELECTRIC FIELD OF THE EARTH DOES NOT SHIFT WITH WIND. SECONDLY IONIC FIELDS AND ELECTROSTATIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC EASILY,THEY CANNOT GO THROUGH METAL BUT PLASTIC AND FIBERGLASS AND PVC THEY CAN.

So you are saying that the PDC actually detects the ion's electric field, at a distance, and not the ion itself? Do you realize how absolutely impossible it is to detect the electric field of individual ions at a distance, especially in the presence of a large and varying ambient field? This is why ion detectors universally rely on ions physically contacting a collector plate, or going through a drift tube.

One other issue... drift tube ion detectors can distinguish between ions by their behaviour inside the tube. Simple collector-plate detectors cannot tell one type of ion from another... it just detects a charge. IF ion fields could be detected from a distance, there would be no way of knowing the type of ions... it would simply be a variation in the electric field, that carries no unique signature of the source (please, please don't tell me that gold ions have a specific frequency). So gold would be no different than iron or copper, or the ions emitted by a DC electric motor, or high-voltage power lines, or any other ions floating around.

So far, your explanations don't correlate with science. I still await photos of your dissected PDC205... perhaps they will show something that makes sense.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

it´s a new generation of diving rod

No, it's not that... there is no dowsing mechanism involved at all.

- Carl

[goldfinder]

I built a very sensitive ion field detector to test the Minero claims and posted this before. The basic results showed that there are so many ion source and electrostatic field sources in the outside environment (like trees and schrubs) that any discrimination would be highly unlike - translated into street English - the Minero can't work as advertised - more BS&M (Blue Smoke and Mirrors).
Goldfinder

[Esteban]

Detection of ions (molecules in movement) can be selected. Ionic selective detection is a reality and today exist special fets called ISFETS wich detects ions and substances. In accord to Scientific American:

The R&D effort started in late 2001, when Koehl, an electrical engineer, arrived at Cambridge from the California Institute of Technology. "From the beginning, I had the idea to create a small, cheap chemical detection system for the military and Homeland Security and then, later, for commercial markets," Koehl says. He soon met Boyle and Ruiz-Alonso, and during the next months, the engineers looked at a lot of sensor technologies, "trying to evaluate what we could take to the next level," Boyle reports.
A chemical sensor "is essentially a filter device," Boyle explains. "Each substance has its own signature smell or fingerprint. That's what we filter out." For Owlstone's sensor, the team chose to develop a relatively new and little known analytic technique called high-field asymmetric waveform ion mobility spectrometry (or FAIMS). The approach sorts compounds according to how their charged forms--chemical ions--move through a gas when subjected to electric fields.
As the ions are made to pass between charged metal plates, varying electric fields (that is, the asymmetric waveforms) drive them toward either side and back again successively, eventually causing most of the ions to hit the plates. But careful application of direct-current voltages to the plates keeps targeted molecules from hitting the sides until they reach a detector at the end. Each DC voltage correlates to an ion type, so the device can be "tuned" to detect specific substances.

More info here:

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000047AB-0D55-1306-8A6883414B7F0000

But this technic is not new. Another technic (no new) uses an oscillator at typycal frequency of 10 Mhz. This technic is called:

Quartz crystal microbalance (QCM)
A quartz crystal microbalance (QCM) sensor comprises a quartz crystal coated with a chemically-selective film. The crystal is configured in an oscillator circuit and typically has a base frequency of 10 MHz. When vapours from the sample interact with the coating film, some are absorbed, causing an increase in the mass of the film. This in turn leads to a decrease in the frequency of the sensor and this is measured as the response. The frequency shift is typically about some hundred Hertz. The advantages of QCMs include high selectivity, high sensitivity, stability over wide temperature ranges, low response to humidity, and good reproducibility.

This technic was used in airport for to detect explosives. For example, tissue of the skin of X reptile is placed in a one face of the crystal and the few molecules of explosive (one part in 200,000,000 parts of molecules of air) can be detected.

[Esteban]

Carl
Go these points for to analize:

1. 2 potentiometers no mean that all Mineoro's models have the same electronic circuit.

* * * * * * * * *

2. The next mean: the rain causes disperssion. 2 or 5 days after the rain, Mineoro recover his capability. So, they need that you and your witnesses to stay 10 or 15 days in Brazil, because sometimes there are many rains. This is part of his condition:

After the rain, the ionic electrostatic fields take from 2 to 5 days to recover to an ideal amplitude. Therefore it will be necessary that Proctors will be able to stay in Brazil approximately 10 to 15 days.

* * * * * * * * * *

3. For Mineoro, LRLs no mean DOWSING RODS. Mean: Long Range Locator, in this case electronic long distance detector:

We would like to make clear that we are going to claim your challenge as two different companies, Mineoro and Segmax, with two different LRLs, and when successfully completing the tests, you will have to pay USD 25.000 to each of the different Claimant companies.

* * * * * * * * *

4. The double-blind test only is for dowsing rods. OK?

Mr. Damásio,

There is only one $25,000 prize available. The first LRL that can be demonstrated using a double-blind protocol will win the prize and, after that, no other money is being offered. Therefore, Mineoro and Segmax may apply, but if one wins the prize the other cannot.

* * * * * * * * *

5. In accord Carl Moreland's conditions in the section:

Standard LRL Test

Revised 24 March 2005

$25,000 Challenge

FAQ / FAE

Summary

3. No traditional metal detection, magnetometry, or radiation detection is allowed. The test is limited to the LRL only.

In the case of Mineoro's electronic devices, the Standard Test Protocol is not applicable, because is a kind of radiation detector. (If we consider Mineoro works as ionization chamber.)

In accord to this point 3., Carl accept the existence of another kind of metal detectors with the capability to detect at X distance.

* * * * * * * * *

I think there are confusion respect dowsing rods and electronic long range locator. Obviously, the "treatment" is not applicable for Mineoro's electronic devices, this is PDC or another similar Mineoro electronic models.

[Carl-NC]

Esteban,

The two examples of ion detection that you cite both require the ions to physically contact a sensor, which exactly support my point that the Mineoro claims of remotely detecting ions are unlikely.

Do you work for Mineoro? You seem to be speaking for them in regards to my challenge.

- Carl

[mineorogreece]

HELLO AGAIN
CARL YOU ARE INSISTING THAT THE IONS HAVE TO BE DETECTED AT A COLLECTOR PLATE,INSIDE THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER THERE IS A ANTENNA OR ANODE WHICH COLLECTS THE IONS ,AND BE SURE IONS DO GO THROUGH PVC PIPES WHICH IS WHAT THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER IS MADE OF.
ELECTRIC FIELDS AND IONIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC AND PVC.
THANK YOU

[Esteban]

Carl

I don't work for Mineoro. YES I know the two inventors. I assure you the both investigate long range detectors since many years and works all the days in this and they are serious persons. I was the person who said them the microcontroller version is not good, because the long distance detector REQUIRES external sensibility control, as old model DCH 85, you can see in a photo sent here (USA owner).

Now, via your message, I know your challenge.

I make semi-long distance detectors and contrast the PDC. The place where sounds my detector, sounds the PDC 205 or 210 and found the target.

I'm not scientific, but if I wait explanation from science WHY a simple RF detector in association with another electronics detects a coin (buried) 20 or more meters from the detector, never I will do experiments.

Why I involved in this? Because my first experience in metal detection was long distance, not the traditional, wich causes in me tremendous impression. As you, never I believe all this is possible.

The advantage of long range metal detector is the non-contact with the soil, mean don't have effects of mineralized soils and/or soil effect.

The more effective distance for a coin (80 m) with PDC 205 (in my particular experience) was in salty terrain. In another terrains decreases for a single coin. And this is a scientific fact (for me), because is a proof that the electrical conductivity of the soil increases much times this kind of non-contact with the soil detector system.

Ionic or electrical phenomenom, RF or what? Long range detector is an old reality. The photo in B&W of 1979 post now is another proof. Mr. John Baldwin (English, the more old man of all, died in 1987-88, don't remember very well) sustain a silver object found via electromagnetic-RF detector type radar. Mr. John and his different teams found thounsands gold and silver objects since 1960, first tube long range detectors, later transistorized as this photo.

[Carl-NC]

HELLO AGAIN
CARL YOU ARE INSISTING THAT THE IONS HAVE TO BE DETECTED AT A COLLECTOR PLATE,INSIDE THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER THERE IS A ANTENNA OR ANODE WHICH COLLECTS THE IONS ,AND BE SURE IONS DO GO THROUGH PVC PIPES WHICH IS WHAT THE MINEORO IONIC CHAMBER IS MADE OF.
ELECTRIC FIELDS AND IONIC FIELDS GO THROUGH PLASTIC AND PVC.
THANK YOU

mg,

Are you saying that gold atoms can float right through the wall of a PVC pipe? Really?

And if the Mineoro relies on gold atoms physically entering the chamber, how in the world can the device determine where they came from?

Also, what is is the difference between an electric field, and an "ionic field"?

- Carl

P.S. -- Do you, or do you not, have photos of your dissected unit? I would personally like to see exactly what you found inside the chamber.

[Carl-NC]

I don't work for Mineoro. YES I know the two inventors. I assure you the both investigate long range detectors since many years and works all the days in this and they are serious persons.
.....
I'm not scientific, but if I wait explanation from science WHY a simple RF detector in association with another electronics detects a coin (buried) 20 or more meters from the detector, never I will do experiments.


I'm not questioning their dedication, just their technical claims. Whether it's ions, or electrostatics, or whatever, it just doesn't jive with well-known science. And keep in mind, that I did test a PDC205, and found that it could not detect gold.

Based on my experiences, and the claims of Mineoro, I will gladly extend my challenge to their product, providing that a fair test can be agreed upon. A test as shown in the Kurt Kluey video, would be unacceptable.

BTW, I like the pics you've posted. Interesting.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

I make semi-long distance detectors and contrast the PDC. The place where sounds my detector, sounds the PDC 205 or 210 and found the target.

Esteban,

Does your design rely on similar principles as the Mineoro (i.e., ion or electrostatics)? Can you suggest a simple experiment in which this principle can be objectively demonstrated? I will gladly build up a test circuit and try it out.

- Carl

[Esteban]

Carl:

Mineoro PDC with two controls is not the same you show here. In the past I had the model “dissected” in this forum and said the both inventors that this is not the ideal for smalls items (coins, rings, etc.), only for big masses.

In consideration to my suggest (I think), they added controls wich works in the threshold.

My next step is detection with the new PDC and shows via video how to adjust and detect with it. You need X experience with this detector for to center the exact point of the target.

No mean that the persons who read all this buy immediately PDC according my words, because if you don't have certain searching method with it, you'll failure.

Remember this: PDC also detects copper, bronze, silver and alloys of these.

My designs in not the same than Mineoro. I finish a design as the B&W photos I post here and consist in a search oscillator coil - radio - audio signalizer and another electronics.

Waiting more good weather for to test in inland. I'll post results.

Carl, sorry, for the moment can't post any technical info.

[hung]

I have just returned from a trip to Mineoro's factory where I performed tests with the detectors and met Damasio, the inventor .

I own a PDC 210 and there I experimented with the new GDP. It had been raining for 2 months almost non stop and the ionic field of buried objects gets extremely weak as the atmosphere gets charged negatively. Even with this scenario, the PDC 210 beeped over really small targets in their test field. But I had to almost touch the ground for this. The new model which is more sensitive responded from 15'' away tough. Their test field is full of ancient jewelry buried because as soon they started to dig the located objects they learned they were small objects like rings, necklaces, etc.. due to the place has served as a spot for farmer families celebration parties in the 19th century. So the terrain is full of objects which they chose not to dig in order to remain as test targets.

The new model has a special switch that when engaged, allows the user to work near high voltage power lines. I was informed that a gold brooch was found close to a 13,000 volts powerline tower.

This discussion regarding wether or not the ionic field detection is for real is null for me. I know it's true and Mineoro detectors are finely crafted precision instruments which are able to classify the ions of gold and detect it. Just that. If one studies the phenomena he will know.
Of course, as ionic fields highly depend of earth's 'humour' there are the special ocasions in which the ionic field is ideal as their website explain.

Also one thing I learned from Damasio is that he's not worried at all about people trying to dismantle the device to see how it works or trying to copy it.
There are components inside that no one will ever know how it works or what it is for, except the inventor himself.

Just my 2 cents.

[Carl-NC]

...Mineoro detectors are finely crafted precision instruments which are able to classify the ions of gold and detect it.

They could "classify" the ions, only if the ions could enter the chamber. Which they cannot, because it's sealed. So, regardless of what else might be going on with the Mineoro, it is NOT classifying gold ions.

Also one thing I learned from Damasio is that he's not worried at all about people trying to dismantle the device to see how it works or trying to copy it. There are components inside that no one will ever know how it works or what it is for, except the inventor himself.

Not at all... the unit I opened had nothing but standard, off-the-shelf components, and easily could be duplicated. I saw no point in doing so, since the device was unable to detect gold, but apparently someone in Germany HAS duplicated the Mineoro, not for the purpose of detecting gold, but for generating sales.

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

When Dell asked for internal photos of the PDC, I completely forgot about the "Center and Deep" accessory that came with it. It is a dowsing rod. Nothing more. Inside, there is a wood dowel with a piece of wire spiral-wrapped around it. This wire is not connected to anything.

In my opinion, this confirms that the Mineoro units are a fraud. If they did work as claimed, then there would be no need to include bogus nonsense like a dowsing rod.

- Carl

[hung]

They could "classify" the ions, only if the ions could enter the chamber. Which they cannot, because it's sealed. So, regardless of what else might be going on with the Mineoro, it is NOT classifying gold ions.

If you've read mineoro greece's detailed explanation of the working principle of the ionic chamber above, you've learned that as the ionic chamber has a gold leaf inside, the sonic pulse charges it with positive ions and as soon it encounters its negative counterpart, a crash in nano level occurs.
Yes the ions do penetrate in the chamber thorugh electrostatic flow. Remember it's made of PVC. And yes they do classify the ions. If this method was of public domain then everybody would be building its own PDC or whatever.

[hung]

In my opinion, this confirms that the Mineoro units are a fraud. If they did work as claimed, then there would be no need to include bogus nonsense like a dowsing rod.


When I was there, I was told they are waiting your reply about conducting the tests in Brazil. Damasio has health problems and I don't think he could make the trip to US.
So, grab your sunscreen, swiming suit and come over here to enjoy the beautiful beaches. I will be in the first row to watch the contest.

[Carl-NC]

Yes the ions do penetrate in the chamber thorugh electrostatic flow. Remember it's made of PVC.

So you're saying that gold atoms outside the PVC, can magically appear inside the PVC, by "electrostatic flow"? Sounds "too good to be true", eh?

As I mentioned before, this bring up another problem... how does the PDC know WHERE the ions came from? How can it be directional? Wind could have blown the ions all over the place. Please don't tell me that ions leave the buried gold, and fly out in a straight line until they hit the PDC... I know better.

And yes they do classify the ions. If this method was of public domain then everybody would be building its own PDC or whatever.

The PDC I looked at has nowhere near the circuitry needed to classify ions. I'm absolutely convinced, per my electronics background, and according to what I found inside the PDC, that it definitely does not classify ions.

When I was there, I was told they are waiting your reply about conducting the tests in Brazil.

Despite their blocking my emails, I did reply... the last thing I heard was an email from Patricia:

Mr. Damásio was not in office the past two days. Though we talked over the phone and he told me we were going to present a test method, as you described in your site is one of the manufacturers options "For manufacturers, I will still intertain other protocol suggestions. In those cases, it is up to the manufacturer to specify what his device can do, and to what extent, and to specify a test method that will demostrate the claimed capabilities."

Next week we will be forwarding it for your study.

Regards,

MINEORO LONG RANGE DIRECTIONAL DETECTORS
Patricia C.
International Sales


That was July 29. Ball's in their court.

- Carl

[Dunderhead]

Carl,

Me thinks up way to scammer you money for me. I makes gieger tube go and then radioactives gold with radioactiv substances with alphie particles to go far and then I can always find. you can't not find later but I can always find and show you how I can find my double blinded gold.

[Dunderhead]

I find circuit for device for detect radiosubstances need 500 volts supply source for detect tube to arc in tube with xenon gas of ionic containment with energy passage of radioparticles.

http://www.imagesco.com/articles/geiger/04.html

[Carl-NC]

Me thinks up way to scammer you money for me. I makes gieger tube go and then radioactives gold with radioactiv substances with alphie particles to go far and then I can always find. you can't not find later but I can always find and show you how I can find my double blinded gold.

Yup, except the rules explicitly forbid radiation (radioactivity) detectors.

I find circuit for device for detect radiosubstances need 500 volts supply source for detect tube to arc in tube with xenon gas of ionic containment with energy passage of radioparticles.

Yup again, radiation can penetrate solid substances, because the particles are much smaller than the molecular structure of the solid. Ions -- especially a big atom like gold -- cannot penetrate a solid such as PVC.

- Carl

[Dunderhead]

Carl,

Ah, you have are smart rule can see forward looking.

black box high volts power soucer for detector tube?

tests with radiosoucers?

[Carl-NC]

Ah, you have are smart rule can see forward looking.

black box high volts power soucer for detector tube?

tests with radiosoucers?

No, the black box does not generate a high voltage... the Mineoro has no high voltages anywhere.

- Carl

[nncunew]

Amigo, veo que eres muy ducho en los temas de los LRL... yo aquí pasando tremendo trabajo con el inglés.

Oye, tu pudieras mandarme algo sobre LRL, por ejemplo algún esquema que me permita hacer experimentos que muestren este tema de los LRL. Algún plano de equipo que encuentre algo a distancia, aunque sea grande...

Cambiando el tema, hice una mezcla de detectores y he dado el primer paso en este tema de los PI, hice una antena de 8.2 inchs y 20awg con 28 turns, me ha salido un equipo con una LM 709 de preamplificador, pero solo obtengo una lata de refresco a unos 40 a 45 cm... y suena muy feo, quizás se te ocurra que debo hacer algo.

Saludos

nncunew@yahoo.com

[Carl-NC]

Experimenting with LRLs is tricky business, it's very easy to get caught up in self-deception. Right now, I know of no instrument that will find treasure at a distance, at least the kind of instrument treasure hunters are dreaming of.

Regarding your PI, I don't know... the coil sounds OK, the LM709 should work (I think)... it could be your transmit pulse width, or the sample delay, or something in the gain stages. You would need to provide more information.

- Carl

[Esteban]

I prefer the words directional electronic metal detector for completely electronic type machine, because the terminology LRL remember dowsing...

The photos I post are, maybe, the only proofs on the world about directional metal detector. All the photos are real, and I have many negative films of these.

Respect the PI, nncunew want a more good audio generator for his PI, maybe a VCO type.

[Carl-NC]

Posting pics of people holding gadgets, really isn't proof of the existence of a working LRL... What I would like to see, and try, are experiments that objectively demonstrate a workable concept. As soon as I see evidence that I (or anyone else) can personally replicate, then I will temper my skepticism.

- Carl

[Dmitriy]

Hello, Carl.
Sorry, my English isn't correct.
What do you think about MINEORO's device and Bionic 01 from OKM Gmbh?
Do you know correct research these devices?
Thanks.

[Esteban]

First, I was witness from 1979 and many times through the years.

There are many photos since the 60's at today. Do you think all the persons are in implication through the years for to make all these pictures in prevention the existence of Geotech and Internet? Many years of photographic evidence only for TO LIE?

[Carl-NC]

First, I was witness from 1979 and many times through the years.

There are many photos since the 60's at today. Do you think all the persons are in implication through the years for to make all these pictures in prevention the existence of Geotech and Internet? Many years of photographic evidence only for TO LIE?

I'm not saying that anyone is lying. I'm not judging your photos in any way. I'm simply saying that I will remain skeptical of an LRL claim -- of any kind, and from any source -- until I see for myself some kind of reliable, repeatable evidence that the claim is true. In the same way that I remain skeptical of alien visits, even when someone in Roswell claims to have photos of a UFO.

It's nothing against you, or anyone in the photos... suggest some experiments that will demonstrate the viability of an LRL technique, and I will pursue it.

- Carl

[Esteban]

They are persons with the foot on EARTH, no alliens in the AIR (in all the acceptations of the word) who visit us with his "amazing gadgets". From my short vision analisis, all the non-well instruments are gadgets.

Also, I think is unequal to compare a spot in the sky (the UFO?) with the physical "gadgets" I show here.

Do you believe that the astronauts visit the Moon? Where is the evidence? Photos? Films? Voices? Do you are present for to confirm is real? My advantage is this: I was present many times during long range detection.

Long range metal detector is not a perfect technology, such as is no perfect metal detector.

My old question: Is more easy to put a man in the Moon (384,000 km) than detect —not at distance— a only coin at 1 m depth?

Something fails.

THE METAL DETECTOR RADAR REDISCOVERED (AT VERY LOW COST):

In internet can to find a radar for detect metals (INFORMATIVE, read all the PDF) in:

http://www.llnl.gov/IPandC/technology/profile/sensor/MicropowerImpulseRadar/index.php

[Esteban]

MORE INFO ABOUT THE RADAR:

LAWRENCE LIVERMORE NATIONAL LABORATORY SEEKS LICENSEES FROM INDUSTRY TO COMMERCIALIZE LLNL’S MAGNETO-RADAR/FIELD DISTURBANCE SENSOR AND METHODS, FOR METAL AND NON-METAL DETECTION, DERIVED FROM MICROPOWER IMPULSE RADAR (MIR) TECHNOLOGIES AND METHODS



Announcement: Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory (LLNL), operated by the University of California under contract with the U.S. Department of Energy (DOE), is seeking one or more licensees to commercialize LLNL’S current patents and a newly allowed, soon to be published patent covering the Magneto-Radar/Field Disturbance Sensor and Methods, for metal and non-metal detection, derived from Micropower Impulse Radar (MIR) Technologies and Methods technology.

• The Magneto-Radar is a completely new approach to a motion and range detection sensor for conductive materials whether metal or non metal.

• Materials may possibly be detected at greater depths and located with greater precision than present technology can achieve by detection at remote distances of very small vibrations such as from a turning fork induced in the targets. Ground balance problems are either eliminated or substantially reduced in most cases.

• Low-cost potential applications exist in treasure hunting equipment, medical, industrial, mining, security and safety screening, and analytical equipment. LLNL’s licensed field disturbance technology with range gating has been the basis for other products and other applications such as range controlled radar motion sensor for security application products selling commercially for under seventy dollars ($70) in the quantity of one.

• MIR and field disturbance sensors provide range to object information while screening out clutter and discriminating from other signals due to the environment, false positives or movement signals outside its range-gated region.

• The MIR or field disturbance sensors can detect small vibrations, such as from a tuning fork, or steel guitar strings.

• Varying frequencies and inter-modulation products of induced magnetic field targets may possibly provide more information to distinguish and identify them from other materials or movements.

These technologies and methods relate to employing a portable, low-power, battery operated radar to sense and locate (range to object) even microscopic mechanically excited motion or vibration in objects such as but not limited to conductive and nonconductive bio-materials, including ferrous and non ferrous metals, wherein the mechanical vibration and resonance may be the result of mechanical, acoustic, magnetic, optical or electromagnetic excitation. In many cases, the aforementioned materials can be detected at greater depths and located with greater precision than present technology can achieve. Ground balance problems are either eliminated or substantially reduced by utilizing either the range gating and sensitive motion features of these technologies in combination or separately.

The MIR and field disturbance sensors are range-gated radars, which provide range to object information while screening out clutter, false positives or movement signals outside its range-gated region. The MIR and field disturbance sensor can be used in three capacities: (1) non-magneto, (2) magneto, or (3) contrast. When used in the non-magneto capacity, the MIR and field disturbance sensor provides a substantially improved means of detecting stationary mechanically and/or acoustically (ex. for use in detection between walls in a building) induced vibrating and resonating objects and materials. In the magneto capacity, the magnetically or electromagnetically induced vibration and resonance of an object can be detected via a characteristic double harmonic frequency. Third, the radar can also detect the target object through microscopic movement resulting from changes in the size, image or contrast of the object.

The Magneto-Radar using either LLNL’s MIR or the field disturbance sensor is a completely new approach to motion and range detection sensor technology using a bipolar generator, which generates unique double harmonics detectable by MIR or the field disturbance sensor. The MIR and field disturbance sensors are a new low-cost implementation of a pulse echo radar. Conventional radar pulses travel at the speed of light and require an oscilloscope for high speed sweeps in even nanoseconds, but LLNL's MIR and field disturbance sensor uses a time expansion technology known as equivalent time allowing it to sweep a million times slower or on a millisecond scale. This range-gated radar operates as a pulse echo system that clocks the two way time of flight of a very short electrical pulse. It involves using a bipolar magnetic field to induce an eddy current in the target object generating a corresponding magnetic field (detectable phase shift relied upon by traditional metal detectors for determining various materials based on conductivity), transmitting various radar frequency signals to the conductive object, receiving reflected radar signals resulting from motion in the object, and processing the receive radar signals to produce an output signal that corresponds to a harmonic and/or an inter-modulation product of the resonating target object in the magnetic field. The MIR radar transmits short, ultra-wideband electromagnetic pulses and the receiver is designed to only receive signals from a preset range(s) R. If there are no changes within or at range R, then the integrated return signal remains constant because stationary clutter signals are integrated as part of the constant return. However, if anything penetrates the shell, it will change the reflectivity in range R, which causes a change in the detectable return signal attributed to motion. Through doing this as well, the varying frequencies of the induced magnetic field targets can be more readily distinguished and identified from other materials or movements through harmonic analysis. For example, when the magnetic excitation varies sinusoidally at a frequency F, the resulting resonance of the conductive object may occur at, but is not limited to 2F, providing a unique harmonic signature that is detected by the motion sensing MIR radar (ex. a bipolar excitation frequency of 60 Hz would result in a harmonic frequency of 120 Hz).

Since the magnetic field of a traditional metal detector must travel out to the object and then couple back to the generator, a sixth order decrease in signal strength versus range results, forming a formidable limitation in range. In fact, it is estimated that traditional metal detectors can only detect coins and jewelry at depths of only approximately 8 inches. In the case of the Magneto-Radar, however, induction of the target and magnetic field emanating from the target object can be obtained via use of the coil of a traditional metal detector or via a more powerful custom magnetic field generator. The strength of the induced magnetic field is usually directly proportional to the detection range. Significantly increased magnetic field strength can be obtained by generating short duration, high peak power, pulsed magnetic fields, even with traditional metal detector coils, without overheating the coil because of the extremely short duty cycle of the MIR or the field disturbance sensor needed to recognize movement of the target.

Additional technical information on Micropower Impulse Radar (MIR) Technologies and Methods can be obtained at:

http://www.llnl.gov/IPandC/technology/profile/sensor/MicropowerImpulseRadar

LLNL is seeking licensees with a demonstrated ability to bring such inventions to the market. Moving critical technology beyond the Laboratory to the commercial world helps our licensees gain a competitive edge in the marketplace. All licensing activities are conducted under policies relating to the strict nondisclosure of company proprietary information.

If you have further questions, contact: Bill Grant, at (925) 423-3082; or grant9@llnl.gov.

Companies interested in commercializing this technology should provide a written statement of interest that must include a description of corporate capability and experience relevant to this technology.



Written responses should be submitted by completing our online Company Contact form.

[Esteban]

Here the radar. The cost is the very cheap (US$ 70):

[Esteban]

Sorry. Change:

THE METAL DETECTOR RADAR REDISCOVERED (AT VERY LOW COST)

by:

THE METAL DETECTOR RADAR (AT VERY LOW COST)

[Dunderhead]

Everybody,

I find patent of secret llnl device to share with all.

Esteban, you provide interesting data to all.

Carl, check dns address, to link maybe pdf to be provided.

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=/netahtml/search-adv.htm&r=1&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=ptxt&S1=((Micropower+AND+Impulse)+AND+Radar).ABST.&OS=abst/(Micropower+and+Impulse+and+Radar)&RS=ABST/((Micropower+AND+Impulse)+AND+Radar)

[Esteban]

FreePatentsonline provides with drawings in PDF and many links with similar patents:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6914552.html

[Largesarge]

Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish!!

[okantex]

Hi everbody,
Esteban
in the article they say
this circuıt makes signs with 15cm wavelenghts which means something like 1.8 Giga hertz.do you remember home-made GPR results .it is working with 250Mhz and can penetrate up to 2 meters. with 1.8Ghz you could only see underfloor like they show in their pages.it not really for treasure hunters.may be for engineers .
have a nice day
okantex

[Esteban]

Radar mean more than works at X Ghz. Mean transmiter-reflection-receiver and process. Any system wich uses the principle works as radar in ANY FREQUENCY.

Also is for treasure hunting. I think you don't read all the documents.

Post 11/11/2005:

• Materials may possibly be detected at greater depths and located with greater precision than present technology can achieve by detection at remote distances of very small vibrations such as from a turning fork induced in the targets. Ground balance problems are either eliminated or substantially reduced in most cases.

* * * * * * * * *

These technologies and methods relate to employing a portable, low-power, battery operated radar to sense and locate (range to object) even microscopic mechanically excited motion or vibration in objects such as but not limited to conductive and nonconductive bio-materials, including ferrous and non ferrous metals, wherein the mechanical vibration and resonance may be the result of mechanical, acoustic, magnetic, optical or electromagnetic excitation. In many cases, the aforementioned materials can be detected at greater depths and located with greater precision than present technology can achieve. Ground balance problems are either eliminated or substantially reduced by utilizing either the range gating and sensitive motion features of these technologies in combination or separately.

[Esteban]

Largesarge: We need more ideas than Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish!! Words like this no contribute. Largesarge need largeneck for to see the extended horizons.

[hung]

Thanks for the valuable information Esteban.
I will go deeply into it as a plus to use along my Mineoro detector.
Will discuss this with you by email.
Tchau amigo!

[Largesarge]

After twenty years in radar maintence I know that the higher the freq. the easier it is to attenuate. A search radar operating at say 80 MHZ could get it's 210 Mi. range with about 100 KW RF power but a height finder operating at 2 GHZ needed 2 MW power to get the same range. An SLBM detection radar modified from the aforementioned height finder needed both TXMR's pumping out 2 meg apiece (approx 4 meg accumulated) to reach out about a 1000 mi. and needed a cryogenically cooled front end to Rx the return signals.

It was one cool:D piece of equipment and after we worked the bugs out we had an 80% operational rate, not bad for a half analog, half digital cobbled together, stop gap system that lasted far longer than it was intended to.

The point is this unless you want to lug around lots of battery power to support a high power TX and a couple of Peltier units to cool the front end of your RX, I would suggest you stay in the low KNZ range. I would dare say it would be a whole lot cheaper too.;)

[okantex]

I am not an electronition and english is not my native language.
so escuse me for some tecnical words.what is Mi
I have used deposit finding unit.
inside it, there were 2.7 pikofarad condensators and it's aproximately L was something like 4.8 microhenry .so it must be working something like 50Mhz
and be sure that there were no cooling equipment inside
and we found gold coin inside a little cup at 4 meters.

[Largesarge]

Okantex, Mi = miles, typical search radar range is 210 miles.

[Carl-NC]

I finally got a chance to sit down & read through the patent. Basically, he proposes using a low frequency (60Hz) EM signal which, through induction, creates eddy currents in metal targets; the AC eddy currents then create a mechanical vibration in the target; and a standard radar is used to detect the mechanical vibration.

This is all feasible, I suppose, though I question whether most metals would have enough mechanical displacement to be detectable by radar. Also, it would provide no means whatsoever to distinguish one type of metal from another.

Finally, this patent is a long, long way away from what Mineoro is claiming as their operational method.

- Carl

[Dell Winders]

For what it is worth, from my own years of experience in field testing LRL, I don't necessarily agree with some of the information provided on the MINERO, website, or in the operator manual.

Nor, would I reccommend consumers paying more than $2,000 maximum, for any LRL, presently on the market. They all have inherhent limitations that need to be addressed and understood by the operator, for the effecient use of this type of product.

With that said, I did have a problem with the MINERO falsely beeping when there were no Gold targets and realized the difficulty an inexperienced operator would have knowing if the MINERO was tuned correctly, or even working properly,

After I tested for the best settings of the MINERO, in fluxuating "Strength of Field" conditions of Central Florida, USA conditions, and showed the purchaser his best method of usage of the product, the MINERO customer has since made six (6) presumed Gold locations with his MINERO.

Both, by personally re-checking his locations with the MINERO, and then comparison testing the locations with a Fitzgerald "SI-GO" LRL, my own "DDL Gold" (experimental) and OMNITRON PRO-4, and X-SCAN, models, five (5) of the MINERO targets were able to be confirmed by these other Locator's

Carl, apparently has an older version of the MINERO, and it may not be tuned correctly, or working properly, which give justification for his negativity.

The MINERO, target depth tool that came with the MINERO, was of a different design than the one that Carl, has pictured. We tested the "Depth" Probe on a deep target. The MINERO, was placed close to the Target location as in the instructions. When the Depth probe was touched to the ground on the possible 45 degree emenating "field" (Bishops Rule), the MINERO would Beep. When the Depth probe was touched to the ground elsewhere, the Minero would not beep. In this test it would beep 24 feet away from the non-electronic 'depth" probe. This test was repeated with consistent results.

I also experienced reactions detecting and tracing the "signal line" to targets, and the depth ring, using a pair of L-Rods with the MINERO power turned on. A lesser reaction occured on the "Signal line" with the Power turned off.

In my opinion, the MINERO, Does work, but not necessarily as it is advertised. Dell

[hung]

Hi Dell,

Nice to see you around here. First of all I would like to correct the spelling. It's actually 'Mineoro'.

Glad that you have the unit working. From pictures, I see that the model you have is the GDM 428, and you are right, it takes the user a relative understanding of how it works and a little time to practice and get used to it. But once you suceed on those, you have a great instrument and tool on your hands. I have the PDC 210 and detected many targets with it. One thing that I think you may not be aware of, is that you actually can use the 'Center & Deep' acessory as a pin pointer for small objects. It's advertised as a depth verifier but it plays a great role as a pinpointer too. You only need to have another person holding it ahead of the GDM and on the beach for instance, it pins points fine small rings etc.

Altough the GDM has more sensitivity than the PDC it was surpassed by the DC 2006, a superb unit. I talked to a customer who went 3 weeks ago to Garopaba to purchase it and he tested it for two days on the beach and found gold items both days in a row.

But my friend, the new Mineoro sensation and believe me, it will blow every detector in existence right now for sure, is the soon to be released FG 78.1, it will pick up gold of every type, not only long time buried, but Mineoro's concept of ionic field detection got so advanced that this detector will pick up fresh gold as well. I talked to Damasio and he told me how people at Mineoro are all happy and excited about its develpments and the results in the test fields were astonishing. It will be the initial development of a new daring project to be released in a year or so, using the Abacus Software to compute depth and distance in a display.
I'll be getting the FG 78.1 as soon it is released. It's heart breaking to say goodbye to the PDC210, but technology has to move on...

[Esteban]

Hope will be better this FG 78.1. By my own experiences, telescopic antenna is better for to pick up the microvolts of small items.

[michael]

Hi everybody.I am beginner in this forum. I hope these articles about mineoro be right. I hope more success for everybody searchs for gold or treasures.actually, when I hear or read about one man success become so glad.
Detection improvement technique is better for us (at least gold questers). But one question has been concerning for me;
when a new model is released , claim it's best without before limitations
and this repeats for next new model.So,can we conclude the latest model has some limitations like as befores? why they are continuously produce new models? Is there a main changing in their ability?
What's the totally score you give to their products?(100, 90, 80, 50,...)
Regards, Michael.

[michael]

Hi everybody.I am beginner in this forum. I hope these articles about mineoro be right. I hope more success for everybody searchs for gold or treasures.actually, when I hear or read about one man success become so glad.
Detection improvement technique is better for us (at least gold questers). But one question has been concerning for me;
when a new model is released , claim it's best without before limitations
and this repeats for next new model.So,can we conclude the latest model has some limitations like as befores? why they are continuously produce new models? Is there a main changing in their ability?
What's the totally score you give to their products?(100, 90, 80, 50,...)
Regards, Michael.

[hung]

Hi everybody.I am beginner in this forum. I hope these articles about mineoro be right. I hope more success for everybody searchs for gold or treasures.actually, when I hear or read about one man success become so glad.
Detection improvement technique is better for us (at least gold questers). But one question has been concerning for me;
when a new model is released , claim it's best without before limitations
and this repeats for next new model.So,can we conclude the latest model has some limitations like as befores? why they are continuously produce new models? Is there a main changing in their ability?
What's the totally score you give to their products?(100, 90, 80, 50,...)
Regards, Michael.


Hi Michael,

Technology as I understand and every device, be a detector, electronic equipment, etc. naturally have their limitations. When a new upgrade technology is aplied to a certain device, this particular device tends to work better and improved. That does not necessarily mean tough that the previous model was faulty. The upgrades reveal better technology and development of better aproaches.
In Mineoro's case, the 2003 model PDC210 which I happen to own, works and is a very good detector but 3 years later with the knowledge aquired regarding ionic fields, one can expect for sure a better model.
The seinsitiviness wil be improved as the power of detection. All Mineoro models before this one, only detected long time buried targets due to the longer buried object,the greater ionic field. Now the FG will be a benchmark as it detects fresh gold. This is a remarkable capability don't you think?

Regards.

[michael]

Hi. thank you. your comments are obvious and true but this claim (ability to fresh gold detecting) was for previous models too (at least for GDP 538) as you remember they at first delivered a 24 alloy gold sheet among with unit for test and it's detection demonstration. So it is not a new aspect in FG 78.1.
of course the field experiences are is another thing, for this reason me and certainly others are waiting for these reports of good and personable men like as ETEBAN or DELL, because nobody can trust only in producers advertisement. Just honest users are reliable. If you have appropriate notes about your mineoros advantages and disadvantages, your personal founds details, please share us and don't deprive us at least by e-mail ( I am very willing to get e-mails from you. it's a high favor)
Regards, Michael.

[hung]

this claim (ability to fresh gold detecting) was for previous models too (at least for GDP 538) as you remember they at first delivered a 24 alloy gold sheet among with unit for test and it's detection demonstration. So it is not a new aspect in FG 78.1.

As far as I know this only refered to models DIAS and IGD which included samples. The gold sheet you refer was never included with the GDP or previous models, but it might be in the case of the FG 78.1

certainly others are waiting for these reports of good and personable men like as ETEBAN or DELL, because nobody can trust only in producers advertisement. Just honest users are reliable. If you have appropriate notes about your mineoros advantages and disadvantages, your personal founds details, please share us and don't deprive us at least by e-mail ( I am very willing to get e-mails from you. it's a high favor)

I assume Esteban or Dell have never visited the factory and stayed for several days performing tests as I did. I agree that the great majority of manufacturers use a lot of advertising propaganda as a 'bait' for customers, but I've found nothing regarding the PDC so far that was in opposition to Mineoro's claims, provided the user knows about and gets used to the ionic field phenomena and the best times to do a research.
Anyway, as soon as I get the FG and use it in the field, I'll post my honest impressions even if the device happen to be what it's not expected.
Regards.

[Esteban]

Along the time I wrote searching tips and impressions about the models. The old microcontroller-automatic doesn't work respect my previsions (Carl had one). I go in trip 4 days (year 2001) and nothing with this old microcontroller-automatic PDC 205 type. Yes with the new PDC 205 two adjustable controls and the PDC 210, also 2 adjustable controls. With the both you have posibilities to find treasure, mainly in salty terrain. I found several items with the both. I have the 428 and yet is under test in inlands. 428 and 538 are models out of line. Waiting for try the new FG 78.1. No need to go in factory, I know personally the both inventors, one of them since 1979.

[michael]

Hi dear Esteban. I am so thankful for your sent info.
I appreciate your attendance to others like me.
I am willingly and impatiently waiting for your new experiences.
and you Mr. Hugh! Thank you, but it should be mentioned; Esteban has used some models and has good experiences. he gave me some appropriate notes and helps honestly. visiting from factory is not important. only the users experiences in field can be reliable; Dell, Esteban, You or anybody else.
Anyway sharing us in your experiences with old or new models will be appreciated. e.g. what was your deepest excavated object by them and the depth?
(if you don't want put in here please e-mail for me).Regards, Michael.

[Largesarge]

The picture in Esteban's post #50 is as the manufacturer calls it an electronic dipstick for use in sensing fliud levels, it is not a radar.

As far as the Mineoro and ionic detection is concerned, I posed that question to Dr. David Stern, Physicist Emeritus of the Lab for Particles and fields, Goddard Space Flight Center. Below is his opinion on the matter.

Dear Dennis

I would be very suspicious. First of all, I don't think gold
and silver evaporate through the ground to where they would be in
the atmosphere, where they might, possibly, form ions. But even
if they did, how would one tell those ions apart from other ions
present in the atmosphere, due to cosmic rays and radioactivity?
(There aren't many--otherwise the air would not be such a good
insulator--but a few exist.)

The usual instrument for identifying ions is called mass
spectrometer, and is usually big and complicated. As far as I
know, the ions must be in a vacuum, where they are accelerated by
some voltage drop and identified either by their velocity, using
grids to detect their passage electrically (heavy ions gain less
speed), or else, by their deflection between the poles of a
magnet. It's a complex and expensive instrument.

So no, I would be dubious.

David P. Stern
Greenbelt, Maryland

As stated this is his opinion, but given his qualifications this dotty old retired NCO is inclined to agree.

[hung]

As stated this is his opinion, but given his qualifications this dotty old retired NCO is inclined to agree.

His explanation of ions and ion identification is correct.
This however only involves one known of many ways to aproach the subject.
If Mineoro (Damasio) released his aproach which happens to be ONE that makes the devices work, it would be known and everybody would build his/her own ionic gold detector.
I said earlier that even if one tried to open them to check how it works, he would never figure it out. People at Mineoro would have to be a bunch of idiots if they sold detectors that the user would open and be capable of clone it, don't you think?
That's why Damasio just laughed when he became aware of the fact that a PDC was shown open in this forum.

Think of it as a cake. All the shelf indredients are known, but it requires the RECIPE to make it right. There are a lot of cakes around, but that particular one...
OK you don't have the recipe, you could take it to an analysis and find it's got flour, butter, etc. So what?

[Carl-NC]

First of all, I don't think gold and silver evaporate through the ground to where they would be in the atmosphere, where they might, possibly, form ions.

This is especially true of gold, which is chemically inert. If gold & silver do shed ions, then this should be VERY easy to prove scientifically. Can someone -- *anyone* -- provide either research that shows this to be true, or a reproducible experiment that demonstrates this claim?

But even if they did, how would one tell those ions apart from other ions present in the atmosphere, due to cosmic rays and radioactivity?

True again. Ions are atoms, not radiation. They are physical particles, and therefore would have to float around in the air, at the complete mercy of the wind. Assuming that they don't recombine with opposite charges, there is NO WAY to tell where the ion came from. Furthermore, it is not too difficult to detect ions simply by their charge, as some smoke detectors do. But it is VERY difficult to identify the actual atom.

The usual instrument for identifying ions is called mass spectrometer, and is usually big and complicated. As far as I know, the ions must be in a vacuum, where they are accelerated by some voltage drop and identified either by their velocity, using grids to detect their passage electrically (heavy ions gain less speed), or else, by their deflection between the poles of a magnet. It's a complex and expensive instrument.

Yup. Identifying the atom requires a drift tube, were the drift velocity is measured. This is pretty hefty equipment.

Dr. Sterns confirms what I have said several times. Gold does not give off ions. Ions will drift around and mix with other ions. Identifying ions ain't easy. Identifying direction at a distance is impossible.

So far, most of the criticisms directed at my findings on Mineoro are

Carl had an older Mineoro with one knob, and it did not work as well as the newer 2-knob Mineoros.
Mineoro uses a new ion detection method that no one on Earth but 2 guys in Brazil understands.
No one can open up a Mineoro and tell how it works, or duplicate it.
My response to the first criticism is that the PDC205 I had was advertised by Mineoro as a long-range gold ion detector, the same as their newer models. It would NOT detect gold (which no one seems to doubt!) and did NOT have any facility to detect ions. If this model was a scam, then I have no reason to believe that subsequent models are any different.

I seriously doubt that Mineoro has come up with a new ion detection method. Just the fundamentals of ion behaviour make their claims ludicrous. But I am open-minded, and I have asked several times... describe a simple, reproducible experiment that either shows gold produces ions, or that ions can be detected at a distance. So far, this request has proven to be impossible.

Finally, it is silly to say that a device like the Mineoro cannot be reverse-engineered. It can, quite easily. Please don't tell me that a microcontroller's code can be protected from reading... I know better. While my reverse-engineering of the PDC205 did not find anything that related to ion detection, I did find a regenerative receiver that can be triggered by a remote-control signal which, obiously, could be used to make the device beep and deceive someone into believing it was detecting gold.

Now, all that said, I will attempt to get ahold of a newer Mineoro, run some tests, and reverse-engineer it. Can someone tell me which model(s) will REALLY detect gold? Since the FG78.1 supposedly detects "fresh gold" (whatever that is), perhaps this is the model I should get... anyone know how much it costs? I notice the Mineoro web site omits pricing.

- Carl

[Esteban]

No necessary to be complicate! The first ciclotron was build with cans and other "trash".

http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.html

[goldfinder]

A simple FET circuit can detect ions at a distance. The basic problem is that the world has ions and ion concentrations everywhere. The ion detector that I built can even detect direction by using a simple pole antenna. And mentioned many times on this thread - gold does not ionize itself. Gold is one of the most stable elements (at least the non-radioactive variety usually found in nature). However, I do concede that gold might be stimulated by some radiation externally and radiate electrons or some other sub-atomic particle. I will have to run some more tests with my jimdandy ion detector to see if that are any stray electrons zipping out from a gold piece. Last time I checked though, there weren't any.

This is a most interesting thread. If guys w/ these Mineoro detectors are finding gold, we have to get one of these detectors an reverse engineer it, cake or no cake!!!

Goldfinder

[Carl-NC]

No necessary to be complicate! The first ciclotron was build with cans and other "trash".

http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.html

Interesting... the article describes an ion detection chamber, that detects ions that are generated inside the chamber. But it does not detect ions that are outside the chamber, it does not detect ions at a distance, it does not identify the atoms that are ionized, and it does not demonstrate that gold just sitting around generates ions. So it completely fails to answer my request... describe a simple, reproducible experiment that either shows gold produces ions, or that ions can be detected at a distance.

Notice also the comment on recombination... the author states that if the voltage is not high enough, recombination will eliminate the ions before they can reach the electrodes. And this is within the space a few centimeters. Consider the voltage that would be needed to pull in ions from 50 meters away, with minimal recombination!

- Carl

[Carl-NC]

A simple FET circuit can detect ions at a distance.

A simple FET ion detector requires that the ion physically contact the FET gate (as in the article referenced by Esteban). I've not seen a FET-based ion detector that can detect distant ions.

- Carl

[hung]

describe a simple, reproducible experiment that either shows gold produces ions, or that ions can be detected at a distance.
l


This is the 'recipe of the cake'...
Also there are two mistakes in your sentence. You're not going anywhere with it..

[Esteban]

No only gold (buried for many years) produces electrical changes in the vecinity of an electrode (Mineoro's electrode, in this case). Here occurs a disbalance of charges.

Also, the ELECTRICAL variation in a site with buried metal is detectable by a simple FM radio.
You can detect via this methods:

1. radio

2. coil (oscillator)

3. infrared

4. magnetic absorption

5. microvoltmeter

5. association between 2 or 3 the above

Continuous detection (reproducible in the air) maybe is not possible yet, because the involved phenomenon depends of the electrical field produced by the long time buried metals.

[Carl-NC]

You're not going anywhere with it..

Yes, I already knew that, as there is no where to go with it.

[Carl-NC]

No only gold (buried for many years) produces electrical changes in the vecinity of an electrode (Mineoro's electrode, in this case). Here occurs a disbalance of charges.

Gold buried for 100 years is no different than gold buried for 100 seconds.

Also, the ELECTRICAL variation in a site with buried metal is detectable by a simple FM radio. You can detect via this methods:...

Yes, I am well aware that buried metals can be located by induction, infrared, magnetic distortion, and galvanic effects. None of these have anything to do with Mineoro's claims, so I'm not sure why you bring them up. Let's stick to the central claim: ion detection. I'd still like to see an experiment that buried gold produces ions.

Continuous detection (reproducible in the air) maybe is not possible yet, because the involved phenomenon depends of the electrical field produced by the long time buried metals.

Gold buried for 100 years is no different than gold buried for 100 seconds.

- Carl

[goldfinder]

Carl,
I am not sure if this answers some your requirements but the FET electrostatic field detector that I have built will detect electrostatic fields at a distance with no ions getting to the circuit. Tests with the circuit in a closed box would detect me running an acrylic rod over a wool sweater at 10 feet from the circuit.

The FET, as I am sure you know, is a voltage controlled transistor. So ions need no contact with the gate, just an electrostatic field generated by ions.

But as you say, one needs to show that gold has an ionic field around it.

Goldfinder

[Carl-NC]

Detecting an electrostatic field is not the same as detecting individual ions. Lots of things have electric fields, and I agree, strong electric fields can be detected at a distance... I also have a device that will do that. The acrylic rod & wool sweater generate lots and lots of charge, but the charge accumulates on the surfaces, not as free ions.

In small numbers the electric field of ions are way too weak to detect unless they physically contact a collector plate. That's why smoke detectors cannot detect smoke at a distance.

- Carl

[Esteban]

Carl, maybe you forgot, but many times I wrote respect the electric field associated, I don't know is the ionic is part of this electric field... Also don't know is Mineoro can or can't detect the ionic, but can detect the electrical phenomenon produces for conductive metal buried for long time. So is different conductive metal buried for long time than metal "at sight", so the coil of the "normal" metal detector can't measure it: this is the only experimentation you want to do. Comprobation requires go out the labo, walk in inland with sensitive microvoltmeter —or like this— and ask: why the device insist in this point and no in other? Do scientifics experiment in this way? No!!! Because can't reproduce it!!!



If no exist an electric field associated, why I can't "enter" in a site where found two antique-big Jesuitic bronze candelabrum? Not with Mineoro, yes with experimental absorption magnetic device. Was difficult to center the exact point, but unearthed, ends the "perturbation".

[hung]

Hey Esteban, how are you buddy?
You're right on your explanation.
But anyway, what I bring is excellent news.
I just talked to Damasio not long ago and in fact I'll travel to Garopaba to get the new FG 78.1 and to spend two days there.
Fact is that in tests the FG78.1 got the astonishing mark of detecting 1 mm square of gold at 1 meter! It's astounding. Damasio told me that the new model is not prone to weather electrical discharges, in fact they even can help detetion if not sequential.. Also now the user can research at night with no apparent problems.
He and his team are so happy and confident about it that advertising in radios, newspapers and TV around here will start. I'm really proud of them and willing to hand this new detector and take part of this new era in detection.
In fact Mineoro's technology hit a point never imagined before. This is the culmination of all knowledge Damasio and Alonso gathered for almost fifty years.
And although it seems an exaggeration, the scientific comunity is not aware of what they discovered.
Although there are threats of reverse engineering these devices, whoever tries will only waste his time and money (a lot of money by the way to get one). It's not possible to do it. They were made like so. Besides Brazil and USA have a strong oficial anti patent breaking agreement and whoever tries to do it would be comitting crime and infringing the law with serious consequences.
As I said earlier only a fool would think the inventors were not aware of this possibility and keep producing detectors which would be cloned...

Well, that said, as soon as I get the new model I'll be out for a couple of weeks starting a recovery operation of a wreck the PDC detected at sea.
Regards.

[Esteban]

Ok, Hung

I'm optimist in this antenna model. My wish is to try the next days or months, deppending the disponibility of this machine in my hands.

Esetban

[Qiaozhi]

Hey Esteban, how are you buddy?
You're right on your explanation.
But anyway, what I bring is excellent news.
I just talked to Damasio not long ago and in fact I'll travel to Garopaba to get the new FG 78.1 and to spend two days there.
Fact is that in tests the FG78.1 got the astonishing mark of detecting 1 mm square of gold at 1 meter! It's astounding. Damasio told me that the new model is not prone to weather electrical discharges, in fact they even can help detetion if not sequential.. Also now the user can research at night with no apparent problems.
He and his team are so happy and confident about it that advertising in radios, newspapers and TV around here will start. I'm really proud of them and willing to hand this new detector and take part of this new era in detection.
In fact Mineoro's technology hit a point never imagined before. This is the culmination of all knowledge Damasio and Alonso gathered for almost fifty years.
And although it seems an exaggeration, the scientific comunity is not aware of what they discovered.
Although there are threats of reverse engineering these devices, whoever tries will only waste his time and money (a lot of money by the way to get one). It's not possible to do it. They were made like so. Besides Brazil and USA have a strong oficial anti patent breaking agreement and whoever tries to do it would be comitting crime and infringing the law with serious consequences.
As I said earlier only a fool would think the inventors were not aware of this possibility and keep producing detectors which would be cloned...

Well, that said, as soon as I get the new model I'll be out for a couple of weeks starting a recovery operation of a wreck the PDC detected at sea.
Regards.

Please let us know the results of your test with this new "detector", and post any pictures of your findings. Particularly any 1mm squares of gold that you come across. http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif
We are all interested to hear about this amazing machine that defies the known laws of physics.

[Jim]

.. Also now the user can research at night with no apparent problems.


I find this interesting that the previous models apparently would not work in the dark. Evidently, ions are not nocturnal.



Thank you for keeping us informed, Jim

[ivconic]

:rolleyes:
"Gold buried for 100 years is no different than gold buried for 100
seconds."
- Well , yes it is! Second one You wont forget where You put it.

"I'd still like to see an experiment that buried gold produces ions."
-I would not.Not interested.I'd like to see only a gold!

Ha,ha,ha!
People,Your controversy and reviews are never ending story.
If somebody want to beleive in a such a fraud as mineoro, fine by me.
I do only beleive in exact things.
A question for those Mineoro lovers:
Friends,are you a rich people?Having such excell product as
Mineoro would easily provide you a lot of finds in the field,
so I guess that you are very rich and happy people, with full
pockets of gold?
No hard feelings.Best regards and lot of finds!

P.S.
Many thanks to One is still fighting against frauds and save peoples money!

[Esteban]

Hi All

Rich people no need gold detector. Do you ear that —for example— Mr. Bill Gates had for hobby or passion metal detection? THIS IS ONE EXTREME: RICH.

Do you ear that the "beachcombers" are very richs finding few rings, chains, coins, etc.? THIS IS THE OTHER EXTREME: "POOR".

Philosophical question: What I understand about what is rich and what is poor?

* * * I'm searching along the years for treasures to really make rich of me (for to have more time for to dedicate in this passion) * * *

I know that metal detectors don't make the gold, found it, with luck, in the correct place, in the day, with all the best conditions, etc.

Is more pleasant found a copper coin at 5 or 7 meters from your electronic LRL gadget that ALL THE GOLD OF THE WORLD... THIS IS THE GOLD!

[goldfinder]

I see the new MINEORO has a little antenna sticking up on it. Is this for the detection of IONS???

There has also been a claim that there is a special detector of ions or something else sealed in the unit for special detection.

As Carl keep saying, sealed units can't detect free ions. The only exception to this is high energy particles that will ionize gases in the sealed chamber like a geiger counter, and these are not "free ions", and Mineoro does not make any claims to detection of ionizing radiation.

My FET electrostatic meter has antenna also to enhance detection. I'll gladly sell ion field detectors for a lot less than the MINEORO... Just send me and ounce of gold (preferrably Canadian Maple Leaf or USA Double Eagle, I'd even take Krugerands). I'd bury a couple of gold coins in my backyard and water every day and see if I get any ions that I can detect. Meanwhile youall can field test my ion field detector.

It looked like one of the original Mineoro's had a aperature into the unit that possibly had an air pump sucking in air. Quite possibly it has an ion detection chamber inside the unit. Anyone know if this is the case???

Best 2 U who have bought the Mineoro. It certainly looks like a simple system that is horribly over priced.

Goldfinder

[ivconic]

;)
To Esteban....

"Rich people no need gold detector. Do you ear that —for example— Mr. Bill
Gates had for hobby or passion metal detection? THIS IS ONE EXTREME: RICH."

Maybe so.I bet that he never used Mineoro, but some nice IB or PI.

"Do you ear that the "beachcombers" are very richs finding few rings, chains,
coins, etc.? THIS IS THE OTHER EXTREME: "POOR"."

They almost always use PI or IB, in some very poor cases BFO!

"Philosophical question: What I understand about what is rich and what is poor?"

Bill Gates is rich. "Beachcombers" are poor! No philosophy at all!

"I'm searching along the years for treasures to really make rich of me (for to
have more time for to dedicate in this passion) "

I can agree with that. But in the name of those years, try sometimes some
real detector....for example Minelab Relic Hawk or GP 3000 Extreme or Fisher1266
or White's Eagle II or any simmilar and you gonna realize,that you wasted all
those years, dandling with LRL!

"I know that metal detectors don't make the gold, found it, with luck, in the correct
place, in the day, with all the best conditions, etc."

If that so, than you don't need it at all! Esspecially not expensive one!
If you have all elements you mentioned than any detector will work, even Mineoro,
but giving $8000 for non-working toy, only rich man can afford that!

"Is more pleasant found a copper coin at 5 or 7 meters from your electronic LRL gadget
that ALL THE GOLD OF THE WORLD... THIS IS THE GOLD!"

I beleive you that 100%.It is impossible(with LRL's), and when you do it, same
thing as flush royal on high stakes poker in Las Vegas or free key from Fort Knox!
..................

Esteban, my friend....O.K....let's talk no more about it.Everybody has a right
on his own choice and opinion. This is forum, You said yours...I said mine(lab)...
it is O.K.....cool! Regards!

To goldfinger...

Ions are defined as electrically charged atoms. Positively charged ions have a
deficiency of electrons, and negatively charged ions have a surplus of electrons.
An ion can also be classified as an atom or molecule with an electrostatic charge.
Another classification of an ion is a charged particle that is formed when one or
more electrons are taken from or added to a previously neutral atom or molecule.
The Ion Detector can be used to detect the presence, and indicate the relative
amount, of free ions in the air.The Ion Detector, has to be designed to indicate
ion emissions from ion generators high-voltage leakage points, static-electricity
sources,electric-field gradients, and in other situations where the presence
of their relative flux density is required.Telescoping antenna is used as the
pickup.In the presence of an ion field, ions accumulate on the antenna, causing
a minute negative current to flow to the input of front end of some high impendance
amplifier.(i have just invented a hot water!)
From the other hand, an ion generator or ioniser is a device which creates ions and
puts them in to the air. A high negative voltage of around 5000v will make negative
ions and vice versa, high positive voltage will make positive ions.You have to run
that kind of device for several minutes in a very closed space to achieve required
flux density, which provide at least any detection!!!!!(Does bell ringing?)
To study more about method of generating ions look on the .net for Cockroft-Welton
principles.
So if we respect what is claimed here, how the hell anybody can expect to "feel"
ions in the field on long distance, aka long range....longer than a few inches!?
Carl presumed that maybe there are no ions outdor in the field. I can partially
agree. There are ions ouside but in very small concentration, so there are no such
device with witch you can detect them far then a few inches from source(generator)!
So we discover now that funny telescopic antenna is trully used, but in very close,
narrow meaning.Do you really beleive that buried gold,coin or any relics are able
to produce ions in wanted density and remain stabile, waiting you to detect them?
I think that some people confused some very known principles with a pure imagination
and decide to make LRL device which really works! I would call them a naive constructors.
They really beleive in what are they doing.The problem is that those devices are
not working at all, outside of labs!If anybody interested, may check on Nikola Tesla
stuff on the .net, it is related in some elements.

I am not pure theoretical. I've done a lot of experiments long time ago, and realized
that it was a waste of time.
Here is a little toy for you.....(baby mineoro)

[ivconic]

:)

[hung]

;)

I can agree with that. But in the name of those years, try sometimes some
real detector....for example Minelab Relic Hawk or GP 3000 Extreme or Fisher1266
or White's Eagle II or any simmilar and you gonna realize,that you wasted all
those years, dandling with LRL!

I have a Minelab Excalibur which I use on the beach to confirm sites detected by the PDC and for diving use at sea to pick up goods again detected by the 'Mineoros' as you say... Only thing is that I would take months to scan a site when with the Mineoro I do in a matter of hours if not minutes..

but giving $8000 for non-working toy, only rich man can afford that!
There are more reasons to charge this amount than just common comercial ones.. And most important: It works, period.
Ions are defined as electrically charged atoms. Positively charged ions have a
deficiency of electrons, and negatively charged ions have a surplus of electrons.
An ion can also be classified as an atom or molecule with an electrostatic charge.
Another classification of an ion is a charged particle that is formed when one or
They really beleive in what are they doing.The problem is that those devices are
not working at all, outside of labs!If anybody interested, may check on Nikola Tesla
stuff on the .net, it is related in some elements. [/QUOTE]
A molecule is the smallest part of a compound that still retains the characteristic of that compound. It cannot be divided without having another classification..So ions are actually atoms which are modified. So when the negative charged ion encounters its positive counterpart, they crash. As in the words of Damasio, 'they love each other so much as Romeo and Juliet'...

What Damasio and Alonso discovered are beyond common knowledge and will never be discussed.
Is it a complete and finished matter tough? Of course not! Their concept is evolving as any other technology to be more effective each time.

Tesla was a genius ahead of his time and his many conceptions like the earth acting as a capacitor and inventions like wireless electrical transmission and many others were superb and were abandoned only because of small capitalist interests... Yet he was charged as a 'crackpot'..

It's so funny now seeing skeptics citing Tesla.. Oh well...
I am not pure theoretical. I've done a lot of experiments long time ago, and realized
that it was a waste of time.
Maybe it was for you, but not for Mineoro. Upon 50 years of gathering knowledge they are up to something.

As I said before, I won't try to convince anyone if Mineoro detectors work or not.
What for? One believes what they want. This is gonna be an endless discussion and frankly I don't want to take part on that...
The only person I had sucess convincing was myself and that's what's important..

My personal opinion of the skeptics is that they did not suceed in building a working LRL and for that reason they keep bashing LRL builders who are sucessful. But the true hidden reason is to try to reverse engineering them..he,he. 'Why he did and I couldn't?' sort of things...
It's like the dowsing subject. They can't dowse and then what's left? Let's bash who can.
There might be other working LRLs around .. But I know Mineoro is one of then for sure.

Regards.

[Qiaozhi]

This whole subject is an excellent example of a phenomenon known as pathological science. Believers offer fantastic theories that are contrary to experience, and meet any criticism with ad hoc excuses. Such theories can easily be spotted as pathological, when only the believers can reproduce the results, and critics continually fail to duplicate the experiment.

This does not mean that anybody is being purposely dishonest, but simply that people are tricked into believing false results by a lack of understanding. There are many published cases over the years that have attracted a great deal of attention, and sometimes many hundreds of papers have been published supporting the results. Some even lasted as long as 20 years before it was accepted that the results were caused by subjective effects, wishful thinking, or threshold interactions.

Self-deception is a process by which we deceive ourselves into accepting something as true, when in fact it is based on a false idea. This is why scientists insist on clearly defined and controlled double-blind, randomized and repeatable tests. This is the only way to negate the wonderful ability of human beings to deceive themselves into believing things that are not true.

"Our capacity for self-deception has no known limits." - Michael Novak

[Esteban]

Contrary to experience? Wich is your experience? The only you know! Many of us to lack your wisdom, please give us a little! Also, this is contrary to experience, but occurs!:

[Qiaozhi]

Contrary to experience? Wich is your experience? The only you know! Many of us to lack your wisdom, please give us a little! Also, this is contrary to experience, but occurs!:

Your reply unfortunately demonstrates the impossibility of this whole discussion. i.e. The validity or otherwise of the LRL phenomenon is based on people's subjective experiences and not on an objective set of tests. We could argue (sorry - discuss) this all day without reaching an agreement. Both Randi and Carl have money on the table for anyone who can prove that an LRL really works, but consistently nobody takes up the challenge. Why? I believe I know the answer to this question, but perhaps you know of another?

By the way, I hope that wasn't your donkey?? http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif

[Esteban]

I assume my "donkeyism", ergo, I can learn! Also, I think you can't discuss seriouslly, since you consider all people don't think like you as sick persons.

[ivconic]

:( "Tesla was a genius ahead of his time and his many conceptions like the
earth acting as a capacitor and inventions like wireless electrical
transmission and many others were superb and were abandoned only because
of small capitalist interests... Yet he was charged as a 'crackpot'.."

Abandoned ...!? Never! Only you do not know about it.
Not only you are trying to teach me(us) about your funny ideas(lrl,dowsing...etc)but
now you would like to teach me about Nikola Tesla !!! Tesla was Serbian,born in
Croatia, lived in USA.About his work...it would take a pages and pages for me to
write to you about it, that's why I said that any concerned may find all on the
.net . Since I am Serbian and We here growing a tradition to rescpect and learn
about our great compatriots through history,it was one of earliest educatioanl
obligation for me to learn and know everything about Him,His life and His work!!!
You may say, that I had to graduate on that matters. So please do not talk about
Nikola Tesla to me.
This 2006.year is a year of Nikola Tesla, worldwide, that's way I mentioned
Him in last post. It would do a good for you and the other dowsers(with mineoro
or without) to study a little more about His work and than to understand some
basic principles in ions,emf...etc.

"It's so funny now seeing skeptics citing Tesla.. Oh well..."

You really don't know nothing about Him !!???
Tesla,himself, was a great skeptic about everything!
No skeptics - no knowledge! Beleivers better go to temple and chant.


"Maybe it was for you, but not for Mineoro. Upon 50 years of gathering
knowledge they are up to something"

Upon 50 wasted years(sorry, but it has to be wasted if those latest products
are the top of their success) they trying to compensate lost time to get
rich by selling nonsence devices to naive and beleivers by hot prices!
No, really....collect all materiall to build mineoro, it will cost you a
$30-$40...not a $8000 !!!!!!If you do not know how, than I'll build it for
you for some $100 extra.

"My personal opinion of the skeptics is that they did not suceed in building
a working LRL and for that reason they keep bashing LRL builders who are
sucessful. But the true hidden reason is to try to reverse engineering them..
he,he. 'Why he did and I couldn't?' sort of things...
It's like the dowsing subject. They can't dowse and then what's left? Let's
bash who can.
There might be other working LRLs around .. But I know Mineoro is one of then
for sure."

Maybe is that case with somebody else.But sorry, not with me.As i said, a long
time ago i was interested in many things (maybe you was not born yet).
Tried almost everything. I do have a some expirience which is enough to
distinguish between right and wrong way to go further.
Bashing !? Well, if that so...I am very sorry..and I am not gonna
bash you any more. Since this is forum, I tried to say my real opinion. Maybe
I chosed a "sharp" way to do it. But that's Me! Sometimes people get resentfull
by somebody's attitude. If that so, than I am sorry. Any way I was thinking
not to waste my time here any more. There are a very nice threads here to
visit and learn more about real stuff.But a label "Remote sensing" attract me
in good hope that I am gonna read something about serious and real remote
detecting,sensing or what ever you like.Since it is not the case,I guess this
is my last visit here.
Regards to all....
Special regards to my brother in arms Quiaozhi.
You put it right. I could'nt done better!!!
Quiaozhi meet me on the other threads, we can exchange knowledge and schematics.

[J_Player]

After reading this thread it appears to me that this topic is going nowhere. There is a group who says long range locaters are total bunk, and another group who says they work by sensing ions or electrostatic fields of a target that is located a long distance. Here are my thoughts:

1. If the LRLs work, then why aren't their owners rich from all the treasure they found? Why aren't the manufacturers rich from all the treasure they found?

2. Why has not a single manufacturer of a LRL come to claim the $25,000 prize? Why has not a single owner of a LRL come to claim the $25,000 prize?

4. I cannot imagine any known principle that allows an electronic device to locate a buried target at a long distance by sensing ions or the electrostatic field of a buried object. But there may be such a principle which is little known and does work, as has been demonstrated by past inventors who developed new technologies. For example, Nicola Tesla developed quite a few new technologies, including AC electricity and its generators and transmission systems. After awhile, all his detractors including Edison gave up on their cherished beliefs in DC electricity to power the world simply because his improved method worked better. After Tesla left his partnership with Westinghouse, he started his own venture to transmit electricity without wires, using his high voltage and high power Tesla coils. He demonstrated how wireless power transmission works by lighting up fluorescent light bulbs 20 miles away without any wire linked from his transmitter to the light bulbs. He turned on the remote lights on demand, and turned them off on demand.

5. The proponents of LRLs talk a lot about ion and electrostatic field detection theories as an explanation of how their LRLs work. They also claim to have developed a little-known technology which most of the scientific community is unaware. However, I have never seen any demonstration that they can cause this technology to work for finding a buried target. I would like to see anyone use a LRL to detect a buried target that they did not bury, and thus end all the controversy about whether the theories are correct. Here is an easy way to compare the performance of a LRL to any conventional metal detector:

1. Go to a remote area that has very little traffic, like a dry lake bed, or a remote desert area and mark out a strip of land 4-feet wide by 500 feet long. Use whatever means you have at hand to insure there is nothing buried in a detectable range inside this strip.

2. Bury a target 6 inches deep somewhere inside the area. Take measurements so you know where the target is buried.

3. Then rake over the top surface so there is no evidence where the target is buried. Let the area weather for awhile if necessary to remove any evidence of where the target is buried.

Let the people who want to demonstrate their locators find the target within the area. This method can be repeated at several dissimilar sites in order to rule out any interference from underground geological anomalies or mineralization.

If the LRL works as the proponents say, the LRL should be able to easily find the target much faster than a conventional detector, because of it's directional abilities which will simply point out the way. The conventional detectors will have to scan every foot of the strip until they finally come to where the target is buried.

Can anyone with a LRL show a demonstration like this?
Can anyone with a conventional metal detecdtor show me a demonstration like this?

[Carl-NC]

First, thank you all for keeping this discussion civil. Second, anyone know what the Mineoro models cost? How much did a PDC210 cost? How much are the new models?

I have a Minelab Excalibur which I use on the beach to confirm sites detected by the PDC and for diving use at sea to pick up goods again detected by the 'Mineoros' as you say...


Are we now claiming that gold ions are emitted by undersea treasure, they float to the surface, and are detectable by a Mineoro?

- Carl

[goldfinder]

Hey IVCONIC,
Those ion schematics are the ones I tested many years ago. Now you go and publish and I can't get anyone to send me 1 OZ gold coins to make an them an ion detector since they can do it for $20 worth of parts. DARN!

Oh well, now I just have to go back to selling that land in Florida some more (hahahaha).

Seriously though, I would like to know if anyone has ever proven whether there is any kind of field around gold buried over a long period of time??? I can't afford to bury any gold coins in my backyard for 20 years to find out.

Goldfinder (not Goldfinger - he was 007s nemisis on one of the early 007 movies).

[Qiaozhi]

I assume my "donkeyism", ergo, I can learn! Also, I think you can't discuss seriouslly, since you consider all people don't think like you as sick persons.

Hi Estaban,

I think you may not have understood.http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/redface.gif I was not saying that you are a donkey. I was asking if the donkey in the picture belongs to you? You do not have to assume any "donkeyism". http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif

Keep up the polite discussion.

[Qiaozhi]

Maybe is that case with somebody else.But sorry, not with me.As i said, a long time ago i was interested in many things (maybe you was not born yet).
Tried almost everything. I do have a some expirience which is enough to
distinguish between right and wrong way to go further.
Bashing !? Well, if that so...I am very sorry..and I am not gonna
bash you any more. Since this is forum, I tried to say my real opinion. Maybe
I chosed a "sharp" way to do it. But that's Me! Sometimes people get resentfull
by somebody's attitude. If that so, than I am sorry. Any way I was thinking
not to waste my time here any more. There are a very nice threads here to
visit and learn more about real stuff.But a label "Remote sensing" attract me
in good hope that I am gonna read something about serious and real remote
detecting,sensing or what ever you like.Since it is not the case,I guess this
is my last visit here.
Regards to all....
Special regards to my brother in arms Quiaozhi.
You put it right. I could'nt done better!!!
Quiaozhi meet me on the other threads, we can exchange knowledge and schematics.

Hi Ivconic,

Don't give up yet.

The problem with this thread is that we have reached a stalemate situation.
This "yes it can", "no it can't", "yes it can", "no it can't" type of discussion is getting nowhere very fast. The critics are being accused of having closed minds, but sometimes an open mind can be so open that you fall inside and cannot see the real world anymore.http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

It is difficult to always be objective, and this is the reason for double-blind, randomized and repeatable tests. We may not like to admit it, but human beings are very good at finding new ways of self-deception.
I'm afraid that the onus is on the believers to prove their case, and to demonstrate a foolproof method of long-range location. Wouldn't it be wonderful if a small handheld device could really detect the presence of gold or precious metals from extreme distances? Unfortunately the basic laws of physics (according to our current understanding) do not have a mechanism whereby this can be achieved. We are waiting to be proved wrong, and my hat is standing by to be eaten.http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif

Finally, there is no point is displaying pictures of the many treasures that have been found with LRLs. This is what I mean by subjective data. To turn this into objective data, you would also need to include all the other targets that did not result in treasure being found. Even then, it is easy to unconsciously filter the data to get a positive skew in the final results.

Let's get down to some real objective testing. Some of the posters on this forum have clearly built their own LRLs, with differing results. If we can ignore dowsing in this discussion, then things can be kept simple, as dowsing is something else altogether (IMHO) so let's not go there.

If you have any circuits, then please post them. This will give us all something objective to test. We have already seen the Baby Mineoro, which is essentially an electrostatic meter. If the Mineoro's are an extension of this principle, then let's try it. This way the believers can prove their case, or alternatively the skeptics can say "I told you so". Of course, some people may say that the commercial LRLs cannot be duplicated because they are based on some new scientific principle that no-one but the inventer is able to understand. This is nonsense. Any type of metal detector that really works can be back-engineered.

To