Ivconic's Negative Ion Detector circuit

[J_Player]

This thread is about the Negative Ion Detector circuit schematic that Ivconic posted. This circuit is re-posted below, and I have restated some of the significant statements about this circuit made by forum contributors. There is enough information in these pages to build a working model based on Ivconic's circuit, as well as to make modifications to the circuitry for enhanced performance.

Some important features that make this machine different from some other LRLs are that it is one of the few LRL designs I have seen that uses no "bait charge" or sealed chambers, while using an electronic circuit that is designed to sense and amplify a signal using standard electronic circuits and principles. I see no place where there are wires terminating on surplus or non-working circuit boards, and there are no circuit components not electrically connected, and only glued together.

I am totally ignorant of how detecting negative ions can help anyone locate distant buried treasures. But I can discern what the apparent purpose of the components in these circuit diagrams are. What I have to say about this device is based only on my rudimentary understanding of conventional electronic circuits and the known physical laws of energy and matter. There may be much more to the principles of how this machine works, unknown to me or other scientifically minded persons educated in the classical method of understanding the world around us. Therefore I make no claims as to how this device may work or not work for locating remote treasures. The following is only my understanding of what I would expect to measure with this machine:

It appears to me that if this machine is properly adjusted, you may expect negative airborne ions in the general vicinity of the dish will be attracted to the dish. And upon contacting the dish, some of them will become neutral. This should also be true of negatively charged dust and aerosol particles suspended in the air around the dish, which may end up becoming a thin film of dust on the dish. At the moment that any negativly charged particle contacts the dish, there will probably be a minute pulse of electricity accumulated on the antenna (or maybe not, depending on how well the circuitry works). I imagine that any minute charge on the antenna would be induced my the electrical or (indirectly) by the magnetic properties of the charged particle changing from a positive to a neutral charge. I presume sub-atomic particle and wave theory is involved in explaining the energy coupling to the antenna. In any case the amount of signal that appears on the antenna is extremely minute, and it would take a lot of ions collected to become measurable. Assuming that the negatively charged particles are being neutralized by the dish in a non-uniform pattern as the dish is moved around, then the amount of charge sensed on the antenna would vary depending on where the dish is moved, and on the composition of the air around the dish. ie: if you move the dish close to an ion source (like a high voitage air purifier, or a flame or other source of negative ions), then the amount of signal will be different than from the previous location. The minute variation in signal is sensed and amplified so it can be seen on a meter or heard from the speaker. The circuitry also has 3 adjustments which allow the user to adjust the output to a null point with a high degree of percision in a widely varying environment of local airborne ions.

As far as I can tell, this device is measuring the the antenna's reaction to the concentration of charged particles in the nearby vicinity of the dish (nearby meaning within a foot or less). If there is some mechanism by which remote treasures are being located, I am totally ignorant of that mechanism.

I welcome any explanations from experienced users of LRLs about how this machine works, and any corrections in the theories that perhaps I am ignorant of. So far I have heard a number of conflicting explanations from different proponents of LRLs. I will have no arguments against any theory, but I may have some questions if I hear explanations that I can't understand. (I already heard the theory that these devices are used soley for detecting gravity and seperating a buyer from his money. No need to elaborate on that, because I understand that principle complely).

The following post after this is Ivconic's circuit and my commentary on the components of the circuitry.

[J_Player]

The Circuit below is what Ivconic posted as a "working LRL". Since it has some standard electronic circuitry, I will give a brief overview for those who are interested. Keep in mind I am not an electronic technician, and I may make some errors.

The basic purpose of the circuitry is to charge the dish positively, and sense minute electrical variations that are picked up on the antenna. The electrical variations sensed on the antenna are amplified and sent directly to the speaker. This means you can hear only variations in the audio range that are sensed on the antenna. The meter is wired to show the amplitude of the audio and non-audio signal variations. There are 4 controls which allow you to adjust the amount of charge on the dish, and to adjust the sensitivity and range that you are sensing on the antenna. This means that you are only measuring relative changes in the signal picked up, not the absolute amount of signal. However, if the controls are left at the same settings, you will see the relative change in signal from one sensing location to another, and from one point in time to another.

Starting with the U1 LM555 at the lower left, all the circuitry around this IC is an oscillator that supplies ac power to the Motorola-Lucent transformet (this is a transformer from a modem card). The secondary side of that transformer is connected so as to put a positive charge on the dish. The 100k potentiometer to the left of the 555 probably adjusts the oscillator frequency. If so, it will ultimately adjust how strong a charge is sent to the dish. This entire charging circuit and it's oscillator has it's own dedicated power supply which is isolated from the remaining sensing circuitry. This is most likely to avoid sending interference from the oscillator to the sensing circuits. I suppose the dish charging circuitry is turned on and off by removing the 9v battery to the left, but a switch could be added to disconnect the battery.

The reciever portion starts with the 30 cm telescoping antenna in the dish. It is shown connected to a wire that passes through a teflon bushing in the center of the dish. It should be said that teflon is one of the best insulators known, and the use of teflon may be crucial for top performance. The physical dimension of this teflon bushing may also be important depending on what voltage the dish is charged to, and if there is an ac frequency component on the dish.

Next we come to the sensor circuitry. (I presume this circuitry is isolated and shielded from the oscillator and dish. All of the sensor circuitry is powered by the two 9v batteries shown at the bottom right. The two voltage regulators provide 8v positive, 8v negative, and a ground. The sensor circuit is also turned on and off by removing the batteries, but a 2-gang switch could be added to turn it on and off. When we trace the wire from the antenna to the 3 ICs to the right, we see the signal is feeding into a 3-IC circuit whose output is sent to a differential amplifier.

Take note, that the differential amplifier has 3 potentiometers, one to control the feedback, and two that adjust the output signal that feeds to the next amplifier stage. This is where the sensitivity and sensing range of this machine is adjusted. After passing through the next amplifier stage at the right, the signal branches toward the speaker and a meter. The speaker has a small power transistor driving it, while the meter has an IC with another adjustment on the input side (appears to be a gain control to keep the meter in the desired range).

A final note about the differential amplifier circuitry: The 3 ICs that initially sense the antenna signal are designed to create a differential signal from the single signal on the antenna. The lower 2 of these 3 ICs, may create a short time delay in addition to inverting the polarity of the signal, depending on the values of the components around the IC. If this is true then this delay can be thought of as a phase shift for any frequency that may be picked up on the antenna, and the degrees of shift would be defined by the frequency sensed. If this portion of the circuit was intended to act as a delay, then it may have a significant influence on the operation of the LRL.

If anyone was to build this circuit, I suppose the mechanical considerations would be to make sure the dish and antenna assembly were sturdy enough to withstand whatever use you put the machine to. I imagine the balance of the finished machine is also important. This machine would be very lightweight, with the heaviest component being the 3 batteries and the meter. The electronics could probably be mounted inside 2 small aluminum boxes attached to an insulator on the back of the dish, and a handle attached to the bottom side of the boxes.

Electrical considerations revolve around the fact that you are measuring minute electrical variations near a charged dish. I would think it is important to wear non-static clothes (no synthetics -- 100% cotton), and keep any other objects that collect static charges away from the machine. Also, I would mount the dish-charging circuit in a seperate metal box from the sensor circuit. And ground both boxes to the sensor ground, while keeping the dish-charging circuit isolated from the box that it is mounted inside. If the charging lead that connects to the dish is longer than about a centimeter, I would shield it with a shield that connects to the box ground.

[FrancoItaly]

HI everyone
suggest this link for better knowledge of the electrostatic/ion fenomenon:
http://www.ece.rochester.edu/~jones/demos/ahern.html
http://www.wenzel.com/pdffiles/cloud.pdf
http://amasci.com/electrom/sas51p1.html#electro
http://www.imagineeringezine.com/e-zine/efield.html
http://www.corp.direct.ca/trinity/iondetector.html

I think that only an E-field may go for 10 meters or plus and ions near the detector are affected by this E-field

[Esteban]

Ivconic, welcome!

:)

Some considerations: the 555-oscillator requires work with voltage regulator. I think 8 volts is fine. So, two 9 V alkaline batteries needed for mantain large time in operation.

Now the transistor is connected to 18 V, no in regulator part for to prevent inestabilities.

Also replace the common 555 by 7555 wich drain less current. Cx is for calculate the desire frequency, believe 100 between 400 Hz is good. The key command another diode for detect positive ions. Dish polarizate negative = attract positive ions. Dish polarizate positive = attract negative ions. The batteries must be independent to this stage of the sensor-amplifier stage.

Any idea? Is correct this?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Esteban
I think you have to reverse polarity of the other diode for detect positive ions!

[FrancoItaly]

Hi everyone

if the purpose of the transformer is to raise the oscillator voltage we can use 2 x 9V batteries stabilized by a 7815 regulator without the transformer...

[J_Player]

Franco is right. There is no need to add the voltage regulator. The original circuit has a transformer which raises the voltage above the amount seen in the output from the 555. If you wish to change the polarity of the dish, then connect a 2-gang switch that will reverse the polarity of the 2 4001 diodes in the original circuit.

The power consumed by the 555 can be reduced by using a cmos version of this IC. The oscillator could also be built from a cmos quad inverter and a resistor and capacitor. I expect the inverter oscilator would use even less power if the capacitor value was small and the frequency was in the low audio range.

My best guess is the frequency does not matter except it should be at a frequency that is close to the resonant frequency of the transformer/capacitor to the right. as the frequency of the oscillator is shifted away from the resonant frequency, you can expect the amount of charging to the dish to drop off. The 100k potentiometer next to the 555 is for making adjustments to the frequency for tuning purposes. The resultant voltage can be measured between the dish and ground rail with an analog volt meter. If this frequency is in the audio range, then there is a good chance you will hear it in the speaker. I presume this is not desirable, and it is tuned to a frequency outside the audio spectrum.

If it is desireable, the are are a number of ways to charge the dish to a higher voltage using the same 9v battery, and even send a very pure dc charge to the dish if necessary. But I have no knowledge if doing this this would improve locating treasures with the detector.

[Esteban]

Elektor's article (1987) about ionic detection for water, somebody maybe has in English. The article refers you can use a plate or telescopic antenna for this. The designers of this device assume that can find water IN MOVEMENT (subsurface), the only kind of water detectable by INTERCHANGING of ions.

The oscillator, through the 4066 transmit the frequency to the antenna for to discharge excesive ions arrival. The 10 k pot provides a kind of threshold and works as sensibility. Key is for detect water and other for electricity in walls. At more low conmutation via 2M2 preset the sensibility is better, this is at more low frequency. C9 is a kind of memory for the signal to compare, require good quality capacitor. Downloadble complete article (Zahori.zip) here: http://www.mytempdir.com/472871
Maybe somebody can translate for all, maybe somebody has the English version.
Here the schematic:

[J_Player]

Here are some ideas for buildig Ivconic's negative ion detector:

This machine can be very lightweight because the electronics for the transmitter and reciever are both minimal. If anyone was to build this circuit, the electronics could be mounted inside small metal boxes attached to an insulator on the back of the dish, and a handle attached to the bottom side of the boxes. The entire assembly including the dish could weigh between a quarter to a half-pound a (1/2 kilo to 1 kilo).

For actual construction, I would recommend that the charging and detecting circuits are mounted inside seperate metal boxes which are both grounded to the reciever circuit ground. The dish-charging circuit and battery should be mounted inside its metal box without contacting the metal, ie: nylon mounting hardware, or slip it into a plastic box that fits inside the metal box. If the charging lead that connects to the dish is longer than about a centimeter, I would shield it with a shield that connects to the box ground (see diagram below item A and C).

The box that contains the sensing circuit will most likely have the meter and speaker attached. A headphone jack could be wired in if you prefer to hear with headphones. Inside this box you should keep the circuit with the differential ampolifier as close to the antenna as possible, and away from the speaker and meter. the most critical part that could recieve interference is the antenna wire and the leads that it connects to. In practice, all these parts will fit in a very small space unless you choose a large meter and speaker. The idea is to mount the circuit board so the end with the antenna wire si up close against where the antenna is, without a long wire looped inside the case to reach the circuit board. The insulator that the electronics bozes attach to can be anything from insulating washers and screws, to an insulated plate as long as the boxes and electronics are not connected to the dish. The transistor and IC for the final amplification to the speaker and meter could be mounted on a small circuit board attached to the meter and speaker, or may be incorporated as part of a single board that holds all of the sensor electronics.
The dish and antenna are items that can be salvaged for no cost. If they must be bought, the antenna can be found at an electronics store like radio shack. If stainless steel works for a dish, then there are stainless stell mixing bowls available at stores that sell kitchen utensils for under $10. Goodwill second-hand stores are a good source to find used metal bowls that are about the right size for this project. The actual insulator and handle can be made from anything from woood to fiberglass. But if a partially conductive material is used like wood, then I would recommend using a plastic separator between it and the metal dish to insure there is no current flowing through the wood.

[FrancoItaly]

I think it's important to define what is the audio to loudspeaker, as there is no audio generator and then signal comes from antenna. The 1 mF tantal capacitor at the out of differential stage has a great value and then only very low frequencies can arrive to loudspeaker, I suppose a sound like "tac". Very strange the imput stage as on the contrary of instrumental amplifier it has a single input, also doubbled, and a differential output. I think the voltage on the Al dish it's not a perfect DC voltage but it has a little ripple of the oscillator frequency and this is the "carrier" of signal received.

[goldfinder]

Hola Esteban,
It looks to me like the two circuits do basically the same thing. Namely, the dish is negatively charged to attract positive ions so the antenna picks up the negative ions.

The 555 circuit in all these still bugs me. I replaced all my 555s and their associated parts with ONE PIC microcontroller and it works great. And it gives me lots more flexibility with numerous IO ports, Analog to Digital, total reprogramability of frequency and pulse width, etc.

Both circuits use a very high impedance front ends to pick up minute ion charges plus amplification of the signal.

Say Esteban, was that picture on the Mineoro thread with some guys with an ion detector your dish antenna ion detector? And was it the hopped up Elktor circuit. So have you really found anything with it???

I would venture that a simple tin can would server just as well to replace the bulky dish antenna. It could even have a fan in the back of the can to suck air in. That way the detector would not be subject to wind and air movements so much. Some of the commercial ion detectors use this principle. That big dish antenna is cumbersome in the field.

Goldfinder

[Esteban]

Hi






The picture in Mineoro thread is a machine type high-voltage, but in this case the high voltage "emerge" from the sharp-end of the central solid bronze antenna. The round copper disc is the "receiver". Incredible, but this machine works better near high voltage lines. No many technical details have about it...







The original Elektor 's "water finder" (in Spanish "Zahorí") suffers some modifications. I added two more lateral antennas to 0 V, and use an only sensibility control, the 10 k pot. This circuit work fine at 4.5 V, 1.5 V AA batteries, dual +/- 4.5 V.



The audio output connect to an audible signalizer type bip-bip. So, convert any "bad" tac or tic or etc. in a bip-bip.



The antenna has not direct connection with the IC, I use 100 pF.



Yes, sure, also you can find buried long time metals with it.







Here a classic idea of antenna for ions detection. For replace the both lateral telescopic antenna in Zahori or for the Ivconic's project.

[goldfinder]

HI Esteban,
Thanks for reply. Your "classic" ion detection antenna is basically the same as my suggestion to use a tin can with an antenna in the center. The tin can is polarized to collect the opposite of the ions the central antenna is collecting that goes to the analysis electronics.

Have good THing,
Goldfinder

[ivconic]

Hi,
I have read all post so far. First, a lot of thanks to J Player for opening
a new thread. I do agree absolutelly with that. J Player's notes,suggests and
ideas are more than welcome and I could not do anything else but agree and thanks!
Some hints:
* For dish I can advice only Al or Cu.
* 555 to replace with 7555 is just fine.(due to power consumption)
* freq.of 555 is to be tuned a lower than 1khz.
* stabillity is not very important due to purpose of polarisation of the dish,
that's why is 555 choice,dish need some potential and freq. can vary a bit.
* transformer is not only for rising voltage but as a galvanic isolation and
band-pass too.
* dish is better than cage due to wider range of rejecting,although a cage is
very nice solution if you want a narrow angle of "scaning".

"Inside this box you should keep the circuit with the differential amplifier
as close to the antenna as possible..." J Player's note
* This is crucial !!! I do agree 100%. Otherwise all You pick up is a noise!
that's why teflon is used.It should be a teflon holder for antena and pcb
at the same time! No wires at all in between! The rest of the box may be
Lexan or metal.

"I think it's important to define what is the audio to loudspeaker, as there
is no audio generator and then signal comes from antenna. The 1 mF tantal
capacitor at the out of differential stage has a great value and then only
very low frequencies can arrive to loudspeaker, I suppose a sound like "tac".
Very strange the imput stage as on the contrary of instrumental amplifier it
has a single input, also doubbled, and a differential output. I think the
voltage on the Al dish it's not a perfect DC voltage but it has a little
ripple of the oscillator frequency and this is the "carrier" of signal
received." FrancoItaly's notes

Ciao Franco, come e sta? I guess that's all from my Italian!
Well You have right at some points. Audio is "poor" a bit, but enough.You can
mod it if You want. The 1mF tantal is a filter. "Tac" is supposed to hear and
it is allright.Input is ultra high impendace, only way to collect some ions.
Input has a "double" or "twins" but with different level of amplifying, think
about that! Both are leaded in to diff. amp.and only a slice shift You hear
in a speaker.About "carrier", well You might be right.I was thinking to put
some extra filter on it.Open for ideas.

Hi Esteban!
"The audio output connect to an audible signalizer type bip-bip. So,
convert any "bad" tac or tic or etc. in a bip-bip."
Yes Esteban, I agree! I was thinking to mod this anyway.
About "jail" or "cage"(as I named it), yes, but it is very narrow and You have to
use a fan. Fan, from the other hand, can produce some noise to input....
It will need some extra electronics to calm down that noise.But in any case,
"jail" is nice too.

Well, what to say more....it seem that if we all put some ideas here(and draws and
some mod's schematics) we can come up to a very nice device. That was my
idea at the begining. Besides, man can learn much more when share with others!
In that spirit I salute You people.
Best regards.
P.S.
I am waiting for more mods. J Player did a great job so far.

[aft_72005]

Hi to all

I have problems :

How discriminate gold ion from other ions with

This circuit ? for example ,silver ion ,water ion,

And …..

May be dish charge frequency dependent to discrimination .

Why use dish in circuit ? for focus ions or attraction it .

Seem as for attraction, so when charge it be able

Attract opposite ions thus probably we can use another

Form Replace whit dish .

Thanks.

[FrancoItaly]

HI IVCONIC andothers
your italian is good! it's better of my scholastic english!
Only few words, I can go to my work:
The 10K potentiometre to BC107 serve to vary voltage on Al Dish, it may be a sort of discrimination..

[Esteban]

Hi all!!! :)

I use this very stable circuit for any gadget. Is for convert the ugly sound or minielevation of audio in nice "bips". This is for ALL use you want.

The 555 works as comparator. In abscence of any signal (this is, all the stages off) connect this circuit. Whit the preset, adjust in the more sensitivity point —this is, near the continuous bips— and retire a very little. If sounds at the moment of the connection, adjust it in the more good level point. The 22 k resistor and the 10 uF cap are for short timming of bips.

The piezosounder is the type that include internal oscillator.

I have built many of this with 100 variations, but this is one of the betters.

Of course, with the preset you control the sensibility you want.

[Esteban]

Hi IONHUNTERS!!!

This is the same, but with speaker. C7 and R7 is for the audio tone, at more high cap, more bass. Select the conjuntion between the both resistor and capacitor, since 1 K and 120 nF, the nice for your ears. Mantain the 47 K in the base of the first transistor. In the piezosounder version, this resistor can be since 1 K. Diode is as protection.

[Geo]

Hi. I think that it is time to play with this ionic detector but i have some questions.
1. I stay at a small city and i can not find the TLC271 - 272. Can i use a TL072 or 082 for tlc 272 and another Op.Am for tlc271 (no Cmos)?
2. The TLC271 and the first tlc272 have unity gain and the first half of the other TLC272 has a gain of 3 about. I believe that the first stages must have more gain.
3. If i use a bakelite feed-through capacitor instead for teflon is there any problem?
Can i detect iron or other metals with the ion detector so to be easy to test and play with it?
I wait for your opinion.
Regards

[Geo]

Hi Esteban. Why there are two dishes?

[J_Player]

A few of thoughts come to mind about modding this circuit:

1. We know the 7555 can be subsitiuted for lower power consumption in the charging circuit. Frequency is not critical, below 1khz. Does anybody know if it is desirable to have clean DC charging the dish? Or is it better to have this 1khz ac frequency component sent to the dish? There are some easy circuits that will remove most of the ac from the final charging to the dish if this is good for improved performance.

2. Is it desirable to have even higher voltage on the dish? If a higher voltage is good, then a simple diode/capacitor circuit can be used to double, triple the voltage or more. Very low cost.

3. For the antenna signal amplifier, the TLC272 has extremely high inpuit impedance because it is a cmos device with field effect input gate. The next 2 stages of differential amp and linear amp are a second TLC272 (each TLC272 has 2 cmos op amps on the chip). There are several similar cmos op amps in this family starting with the low-cost TLC272 to the TLC277 for high precision. All these devices are capable of taking a very small signal and amplifying it with a minimum amount of interference from the power supply and very low power consumption compared to bipolar op amps. This is why they are the preferred choice of op amps to process the weak ion singnal on the antenna... they give you the best chance of listening to this signal with the least amount of interference from outside noise. If you want to make a substitution, then use another Cmos device or FET device in order to keep the input impedance very high. A simple cmos inverter like the 4001 can be used as a substitute and wired with feedback to act like a linear amp with hand-picked resistors and capacitors to accomplish the same results as the TLC272, but it will be a more simple design. The 4001 inverter version will have the same noise rejection properties as the TLC272, but not the refinements and linearity of the TLC272 op amp version. It may turn out that the 4001 version is adequate, and no need for advanced op amp version of Cmos.

There are also other cmos and FET devices that could be substituted in the signal amplifier stages. If you want to know a good substitution, then look at the cmos and FET catalogs, and find op amps and darlington amps that are available. All these devices consume low power if you don't connect a power hog load to them. And this circuit does not show any power hog load in the output of any of the signal amplifier stages.

4. Ideally these antenna signal amplifiers should be close to the dish and antenna. You may even make a small 30cm circuit board to hold these cmos amplifiers, and connect it to the antenna connection at the teflon bushing. Then put a wire mesh or metal box around this circuit board, and send output wires to the speaker and the meter. In order to keep things simple, the transistor and op amp for the meter and speaker could be mounted on the back of these devices. This way, the sensitive cmos parts could be kept seperate from the higher power noise-maker amplifiers for the speaker and meter.

5. Answer about audio at the speaker: Any audio heard at the speaker will come from one of three sources. 1) If ion signal is being collected on the antenna in a wave pattern that is in the audio range of frequency (20 hz to 15000 hz) then you should hear this sound on the speaker. 2) Electronic noise from the circuitry may be audible on the speaker if this noise gets into the signal circuitry. This noise includes the 1khz charging oscillator frequency, and elecrtonic noise from transistors in the meter and speaker amplifier circuits. 3) Atmospheric interference, which could include who knows what? Could be anything from static electricity to sunspots causing ionisphere interference, or friction from tires rolling on the road sending out static charges. The electronic circuit noise can be minimized by using shielding around the signal amplifiers, and by keeping the connection wire very short between the antenna and the cmos op amps.

6. Final thought is a question for anyone who knows: The antenna signal feeds into 2 op amps which send out a differential signal into the differential amp. But these 2 op amps also have a 3rd op amp shown below in a feedback loop on the lower of the 2 op amps. What is the purpose of this feedback loop? is it only to create a delay that helps reverse the polarity of the lower op amp? Or is it to also act as a filter for certain frequencies seen in the antenna signal?

[Jim]

Wouldn't the pinky ring on the operator’s hand hinder the operation of that particular device? In addition, why is that one fellow holding a piece of string up over the device, as if it was a trophy?

Jim

[FrancoItaly]

I think you can use TL081 and TL082 or 3 X CA3130 that have similar features. The first high impedance stage use bootstrap technique :(http://web.telia.com/~u43200663/blocks/bootstrapping.htm the bottom stage with 2 OP (TLC272) has a greater impedance than the TLC271 amplifier, and is also greater the RC constant. I think that the differential amplifier only responds to variations of signal input, when you move the instrument in different site, and like a "motion metal detector" the 4K7 potentiometer is the preset "tuning". There is no need of retuning push.

[FrancoItaly]

The Led in input stage serves to visualize the battery charge, but I think is better to use a 78L06 for voltage stabilization with 1/2 LM358 used as comparator + Led and to use the other 1/2 LM358 as oscillator instead LM555. The voltage on Dish can be changed by the 10K potenziometer and I think we can use other types of transformers, but it's necessary to know the highest value of voltage on Dish, on this site http://www.techlib.com/science/ion.html#Better%20Version the author uses 45 V for collecting ions and we can use a transformer with a ratio of 1/5 or 1/6.

[robert]

Anybody knows replacement for op.amps. 2071,2081,2082 etc...
Some projects include those....Help!

[ivconic]

:)


Hi,
AFT 72005
"How discriminate gold ion from other ions with This circuit ? for example ,silver ion ,
water ion, And ….."
Huh! It is a question! Ask Carl ! He'll be delited to answer!
By the way, there is no way to discriminate type with this device only polarisation.
I am not sure that ions care their origin at all.Somebody claimed that, but I never
met such claims in my books.Anyway , that kind of device should cost over $milions !!!
(in that case mineoro is very cheap...bargain, you may say).

Geo,
You can test ionic detector very easy, by pointing it in
some older TV set. Almost is a rule that high voltage stage in older TV's is
"leaking", and producing a lot of ions !!! Simple and cheap test !
About op.amps....you already got answer from the others...
About gain, it is enough. Adding more gain lead You to risk of going "wild".
About bakelite feed-through capacitor...I don't think so.
"Can i detect iron or other metals with the ion detector..."

Good question...Ask Carl,than ask Dell...than decide.(I would bet on Carl!)
J Player

Most of Your remarks I agree!
"2. Is it desirable to have even higher voltage on the dish?"

No! It was crucial mistake on some previous designs ! Higher voltage may generate
some own ions, so You can easy colect them instead foreign ones, if everything
was not quite good adjusted!

"6. Final thought is a question for anyone who knows: The antenna signal
feeds into 2 op amps which send out a differential signal into the differential
amp. But these 2 op amps also have a 3rd op amp shown below in a feedback loop
on the lower of the 2 op amps. What is the purpose of this feedback loop? is it
only to create a delay that helps reverse the polarity of the lower op amp? Or
is it to also act as a filter for certain frequencies seen in the antenna
signal?"

As a filter for certain "frequencies" seen in the antenna signal and integral part of
second input, acting a huge role in common impendance....
Delay...maybe, I didn't think that way....very interesting!

FrancoItaly
"The 10K potentiometre to BC107 ..."

Preset the amplitude of signal.
TL081/082 ... I do not think so ! CA3130/40....maybe...709(MAA501)...maybe

"The first high impedance stage use bootstrap technique ..."
Absolutelly correct !!! Bravo Franco !!!
"I think that the differential amplifier only responds to variations of signal input,
when you move the instrument in different site, and like a "motion metal detector"
the 4K7 potentiometer is the preset "tuning". There is no need of retuning push."
Absolutelly correct !!! Again Bravo Franco !!! Come to think...are You posted
this project or it was me !? You understood everything much better than me!?
Great understanding! Bravo!
"The Led in input stage serves to visualize the battery charge..."
Led should blinks in the rythm of charging....good.

"...but I think is better to use a 78L06 for voltage stabilization with 1/2 LM358 used
as comparator + Led and to use the other 1/2 LM358 as oscillator instead LM555.."
Really not necessairly, but good idea anyway.
"I think we can use other types of transformers..."
Steady...other transformer...other characteristics! But transformer is easy to
obtain. Open some old modem and there it is !

Esteban
Good schematic Esteban. I was thinking to mod Classic III sound, I'll try this
your schematic and see. Thanks for posting it.

Best regards to all!

[aft_72005]

Hi ivconic and all

Mineoro company says be able detect gold ions .

Are you or anybody know what kind of detection used in mineoro ? is it ion detector ?

And I wrote :

Why use dish in circuit ? for focus ions or attraction it .

Seem as for attraction, so when charge it, be able

Attract opposite ions thus probably we can use another

Form Replace whit dish .

I have not any reply yet.
Thanks ivconic and all.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi,
I think that it's possible to detect gold in a range of some meters or plus. It 's true that gold don't release ions but it can form a ground battery with other metals and/or minerals also if they are not near gold, it takes only several years in order that the battery "appears"; this is the "long buried" effect! A battery in the ground can add its own voltage to existing E-field and then it can deform its induction lines. The conclusion may be a different distribution of ions that are normally in the air: if this explanation is true it's possible to test our ion detector with a sample of gold and an iron rod sticked in the ground at few meters...

[FrancoItaly]

my previous explanation is compatible with what Esteban says: his ion detector is sensible not only to gold but also to copper and bronze, that is other metals that are able to form a battery with iron and/or minerals. Perhaps it's possible a type of discrimination as the battery formed by gold and other metals has a greater voltage then other batteries without gold..

[J_Player]

So far we have established that this machine can be expected to attract airborne negative ions and and detect their presence in the vicinity of the dish and antenna. It appears that the machine works in a manner similar to commercial ion detectors used to test for equipment that is creating ions. But this leads us to the next stage:

How can we use this machine to locate buried treasures? What specific techniques could we use? Let's suppose we ask a friend to take a 1-ounce gold coin (90% pure or more) and bury it 6 inches deep in a soccer field, and remove any evidence that would show where the coin is buried. Then we arrive with the newly built negative ion detetor and turn it on. After adjusting the controls, we see the meter move when we click our piezo lighter several times up close to the dish. Now it is time to locate the buried coin. Our friend is sitting at the side of the soccer field with a grin on his face thinking we will never find the coin. What should we do next?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J PLAYER
As I told in my previous post you can stick an iron rod in the ground and the battery gold/iron can influence your ion detector..

[Dell Winders]

I don't mean to intrude where I am not qualified to speak as I have zero formal education in electrical, electronics, or physics, but I notice that the focus is on how Ion's can be utilized for remote sensing, and the acceptance that Ions are the primary source of the applied physics that are claimed to be employed in the schematic being analyzed and interpreted.

Years ago a Physcist in Texas that was using one of my instruments told me he knew the principle these instruments utilized for remote sensing the "field's" of Chemical elements, "Light Wave Particles". I can't disagree that LWP may inadvertently play a minor role because I don't know, but from my very limited knowledge I don't see LWP as the basis of the application, and maybe it's not Ion's either.

I think if I were attempting such a study exclusive to the Ion theory, I would seek to learn how big a role Ion's play in conventional methods before reaching a conclusion that it actually is an application of Ion's that is being utilized in the schematic, and not assume that it is fact, rather than it possibly being "AS IF" Ions appear to be the physics being utilized? Who here is qualified in Earth Science Physics to let us know?

My questions would be, how big a role do Ion's play in conventional detection methods using E/M, Magnetometor, low frequency Radio waves, Magnetic resonance, etc? Dell

[Esteban]

Hi all the IONSHOOTERS!!!

If the decive works in conjunction of stability and sensibility with addition of bips generator, sure will be detect gold, silver, alloys of these, copper and bronze. Distance in discussion. Maybe 20 m for a coin.


Geo:

The machine was experimental for gold. The center antennna is a bronze type sharp end. A TV flayback generates high voltage and charge high voltage capacitor in order 30 pF 30 kV during few seconds. This generates an "ionic wind" and the copper disc receive and actuates as a key connected to chemical classifier, but don't have more info about it.

TLC 271 replacement FROM ANOTHER ELECTRONIC FORUM: Probably the best replacement for LF351 will be CA3140, but you can easily use TLC271, ICL7611, TLC071, TLC081.

For replacement TLC 272 you can use TLC072, TLC 082. Or commons TL062 - TL072, LF412, LF353. More new is NE5532.

For single maybe the commons TL061, TL071, LF411, LF351, LF356. More new is the NE5534. Try!!!

Bakelite is better. No static collected.

* * * * * *

Ivconic:

555 comparator-timer (great discovery!) is useful for all you think. If you connect a tuned coil, you can test oscillators, search heads, etc. If you connect phototransistor or IR led receiver or photorresistor, test remote controls, phototransistor, photodiode, etc. If you connect a coill winding in magnet, you detect vibrations. An short antenna detects flyback oscillation or pulse induction. No limits! Is my universal "revealer".


* * * * * *

FrancoItaly:

Respect the battery formed in earth: here the radio by earth battery by galvanic effect!!! (so consider old time buried gold and any conductive metal as battery)::D

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Esteban,
You have a working ion detector then you can verify if it's possible to sense a gold/steel ground battery...

[J_Player]

This ion detector seems like it is useful for detecting negative ions, not buried gold. This particular machine was not represented as a treasure locating device. What Ivconic told us when he posted the schematic is: "Only one claim: this device at least do something, despite some commercial devices do nothing!"

He never said it could locate any treasure. So far, we have no answers that tell us how to locate a buried treasure using this machine. Discussions of physics theory are not necessay to explain what procedure should be used with the Ivconic ion detector to locate treasure. Physics theory is good for designing LRLs, but we already have a completed design that is guaranteed to "at least do something". The only question I have is how to use this machine to locate treasure. I am interested to know the procedure and method that must be used, not the theories of why it works or does not work.

We have a hint from Franco: "you can stick an iron rod in the ground and the battery gold/iron can influence your ion detector". This is at least a first step toward locating a buried treasure. But how to find the treasure buried in a field using Ivconic's negative ion detector? In Franco's posts, he says "it takes only several years in order that the "battery appears"; this is the "long buried" effect!".

So now we have somewhere to start. Let's suppose we have finished building Ivconic's negative ion detector, and we have tested it and found that it works as well as most commercial ion detectors at finding ions around your television screen and your high voltage air purifier. Now we show the machine to our friend who tells us he buried a 3-ounce gold nugget in a soccer field 5 years ago. He also buried an iron pipe 30 cm long at each of the 4 corners of the soccer field, where the top 2 cm of these pipes can be seen in the grass. He invites us to come to the soccer field to see how well Ivconic's negative ion detector works for locating "long buried" 3-ounce gold nugget that has had time to develop the "battery effect".

So we drive to the soccer field on a warm summer day and get out of the car at a golf course across the street from the soccer field. We turn on the ion detector and adjust the controls while standing in the middle of the fairway of hole 3 of the golf course. After seeing that it picks up a signal when we click our piezo lighter near the antenna and dish, we walk across the street to the soccer field that has the long-buried" gold nugget, and 4 iron pipes at the corners of the field.

The question is: What do we do next in order to locate where our friend buried the gold nugget? What step-by step procedure do we use to find the buried nugget using this negative ion detector built from Ivconic's schematic?

The question is NOT about what princples of physics cause LRLs or ion detection to work. It is Not a question of whether ions play any important role in locating treasure. The question is about how can I find that nugget using Ivconic's negative ion detector machine.

[michael]

Hi anybody and thanks so much for your efforts.
I have these questions from Esteban (due to his more experiences);
1- Is this device able to detect gold or as J player stated not?
2- If is able, should we use just 1 Hz or no, can use other frequencies e.g. 5 KHz for gold or 8.7 KHz for silver?


I am so much desired know after these your professional and copious discussions,
where are now? It’s only an obscure ion detector??!!!
Regards, Michael.

[J_Player]

I can tell you with very high accuracy that this machine will find negative ions in the air. I cannot tell you that this machine will find treasure until someone shows us how to locate treasure with this machine. But if you build this machine exactly as shown in Ivconic's schematic, then you will find negative ions near your old television for sure..

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

If we bury a sample of gold and a sample of iron at 2 or 3 meters of distance the ground battery soon appears and you can verify easy with a voltmeter. If my theory is true you can detect this voltage also with a ion detector.
The Ivconic's ion detector is a motion instrument non for static measurements. Ordinary ion detectors are designed for eliminate AC components of the detected signals. I think that for all us it's not interesting to know how many ions are near our television, but perhaps some piece of gold may be hidden inside the television!

[J_Player]

Does this mean that it is not possible to find the 3-ounce gold nugget in the soccer field with Ivconic's negative ion detector unless an iron pipe is buried 2 or 3 meters from where the gold is buried? If the gold nugget was buried 2 meters from the iron pipe in the corner of the soccer field, then what method would we use to locate the nugget using Ivconic's negative ion detector? Is it necessary to first know the location of 3 meter square piece of land with hidden gold and iron pipe before we can locate it with this negative ion detector? I think we can find the 3-ounce nugget with an ordinary metal VLF or PI detector if we know the location within 3 meter square area, and no need for iron pipe nearby. Does this mean the negative ion detector is not good for LRL detecting?

Some televisions use gold plated connectors. Will the ion detector find dtll us the difference between a television with gold plated connectors inside and a television with no gold plated connectors? Will it tell us if a television has silver plated connectors and wires? Is the signal for gold plated connectors stronger than the signal that comes from high voltage flyback causing ionization to the air that comes in contact with the components and then dissipates and migrates out of the vent holes in the back of the television?

[Esteban]

Hi IONHUNTERS!!

Only metals buried for some years show the phenomenon. So, this machine or like this is for detect buried metals, because these creates around him an electric field or like a battery as suggest FrancoItaly. Repeat: if this ion detector combines good sensibility, stability and accuracy, then sure will be sensitive to this kinds of electric fields, because this electric fields produces an imbalance in the antenna and can show via the adequate signalizer. A treasure produces high energy, in some cases can break the first IC, no science-fiction. This machine is for use in inland, lands free of excessive interference and far to powerlines. Accuracy in this kind of machine mean stability in the more sensitive point.

Here is not important if the soil is more negative or positive than the air or viceversa. Or if the input of the IC is for positive or negative signal. In stability condition of ambient no signal is present, but in the vecinity of this metal there are a voltage and this rapid changes "knock". So, this "knock" is the important, because up or down the voltage in the electronics, but while "search" for stabilize in the zero, if down tends to up, and if up tends to down and occurs the bips. Agree with FrancoItaly: this instrument is for motion operation. The blocking cap in the antenna is important. 100 pF is a good value. Ceramic high voltage is good, 500 or 1,000 V.

Walk with the machine and move left-right, right-left not very slowly. This mean during detection as you move work as AC and the signal pass through the antenna cap!

The machine form a 90º angle with the body, not very near the body, with the arm semiextended. For to be sure you have detected a X point where the machine sounds, walk in another direction. The bips in the place is the "site".

Another considerations:

* Sometimes (this occurs with some designs) the difference in the terrain produces erratics. All you know that each 1 meter the voltage in the air is 100 or 200 V more the referencial site... Difficult "business" fight to this kind of disturbs.

* At low atmospheric pressure, all long distance detector is better.

I have metal buried in my yard since 1987: 51 bronze quality coins at 75 cm, recipient of silver (200 g) -90 cm-, copper coins (4), cover of gold old watch, small "treasure" of various silver objects, gold rings, include a bronze plate of record player, a 120 cm X 60 cm gross copper plate, curious found with long distance electronic detector at 50 m.

What are you doing? Start with your artificial fields!

[Anker]

The Regard!

Think, you is of interest honour the letter from Mineoro my friend , in brief explaining principle of the recognition "golden" ion.

Excuse me for bad english, with best wishes,

Anker.

===========






Dear Mr. Kravchenko,





Hope you this finds you well.



In answer to your questions about Long Range Directional Detectors with Classifier (LRDD):



It is necessary to clarify, in the first place, that understanding a “new invention” starting with the knowledge we have about ions, electromagnetism, magnetic fields, electric fields, EMI, dinamic electricity, static electricity, radio waves, LW, MW, SW, VHF, UHF and others, without advancing many grades forward these phenomena, already known by Science, is very difficult , not to say impossible.



We should also note that these “new phenomena” cannot be measured as there aren´t, yet, measuring instruments sensitive enough.



DEFINITIONS:



1 – Dynamic Electricity:



It is the energy generated by electric generators and transmitted by metal conductors, wires. This energy is produced as alternated tension , (ac) or continuous (cc) . This is also extracted from continuous current batteries.



2 – Static Electricity (Electrostatic)



It is the electricity produced by insulators or bad conductors.

It is generated by friction of substances between them. Solid, Liquid, Gaseous or Plasmatic. This definition was first enunciated by the german scientist Loeb (references quoted), in 1958.







3 – Creation of Ionic Fields:



3.1 – Generated by continuous high tension positive or negative by sharp point. Normally around 800 to 900 volts. Other tensions are feasible.

3.2- Ionic field by chemical flow in galvanization processes.

3.3 – Other ionic fields generators for different purposes, so-called ionizators.



4 – Magnetic Fields



They are fields created by permanent alnico magnets, strange earth magnets, etc, the magnetic field of the Earth, generated by the central core or the Planet that has a field of aproximately 0,5 gauss at the polar ice-caps and 0,3 gaus at the Equator line. Approximate data. Other magnetic fields can be created in radio coils generated by electromagnetic Hertz waves. They create microfields, that eventhough their low intensity are measurable in oscilloscopes, microvoltimeters and other electronic instruments , and amplified by electronic circuits for various uses.





I am certain that you, being an Electronic Engineer and Chips Designer, have studied in your Engineering course all these phenomena , that is why I have just mentioned a feedback, as a reminder , with the aim of just clarifying what is scientific knowledge and what the inventors Damásio and Alonso have advanced from the information already of public domain and academic curricular subject.



5 – Measurements:



In this item I would like to approach briefly the measurement of phenomena. The data referred here are not submitted in exact percentage. They are just data for reflection and understanding of the “new phenomena” detected by the inventors.



5.1- In measurements of dynamic electricity I will just refer to tensions under 1 volt.

5.2- In measurement of static electricity of 0 (zero) to 20.000 volts or more.

5.3- In measurement of ionic fields in Å - angstrons, nano, pico, femto and atto volts.



6 – What are Ions:



The scientific concept of Ions is already of public domain and well-informed in scientific books and news worldwide.

Ions are atoms. Modified atoms. One ion is called “positive ion” when it loses one or more electron(s). It is called a “negative ion” when an electron or more is increased to it. In that area of activity we are visiting a region of “nano” or below nano movements.

That is to say: Å= 10-8; nano= 10-9; femto=10-15 and atto= 10-18.





7 – Why are Ions free everywhere?



It is because the matter – all and any substance – loses atomic weight, it loses atoms liberated from matter in form of negative “ions” and positive “ions”. These ions are everywhere in the Universe. In our solar system, in the atmospheric space and cosmic space, in Earth as a whole. In the ground, underground and in the center of the Planet. Therefore, everywhere we have ionic fields spread in all directions. Our physical body is losing atomic weight during 24 hours. Our clothes, our hair, our shoes, our houses, furniture, food, and fresh water, salty water, all and any liquid, or gas, everything in any state of matter loses atomic weight in form of ions.



The loss is proportionate to the size of the object, the bigger the object, more “ionic” volume lost. All the elements of Earth also are in form of atoms. All the mines, all the minerals. The plants, the bushes, the big trees, the flowers, all I can name, being a substance, is giving away ions through loss of atomic weight.



Summary of Item 7 ( First item of LRDD system)



The “matter” – substance – necessary for Long Distance detection exists in our solar system and beyond. We will see, then, how can we manipulate these information and use the ions of each substance. (*)



8 – An observation of what exists and a “discovery” . New invention.



How does a short-circuit occur?

When we connect a positive wire to another negative without any charge, a short circuit occurs. Independently of the existent tension. Could be microvolts, nanovolts or below, or higher tensions. This short- circuit produces a characteristic noise like a “CRASH” (breakdown), noise that can be heard from a few centimeters to a hundred of meters, depending on the voltage provoking the short-circuit. Followed by a glaring radiance proportionate to the short -circuit.



The discovery: During laboratory and field studies , we discovered that between a negative ion and a positive ion the same phenomenom occurs. A short-circuit occurs and a proportional CRASH. In the microvolts, nanovolts region or below. The short-circuit and the CRASH are not measurable or audible. So if we could hear that CRASH or detect that short-circuit in an electronic system of super high sensitivity we will have a response of the phenomenom.



The idea behind the Substance Classifier



As the package of ions spread in all directions, of all substances was too big and compact, it was difficult to separate just an “ion” or various “ions” of the same substance. So we come out with the idea of inventing a “Substance Classifier” , that is to say, a device which has the ability to “filter” just the “ion” or “ions” we needed to produce the phenomenom of “micro crash”, “nano crash”or below. After years of researching and field experiences , it was born. It was invented not just as a classifier – “filter”, but as a generator of positive “ions”, receiver of negative “ions” in order to the short-circuit occur , and generator of electrostatic. Through electrostatic , the “ions” walk long distances , as if along an “invisible wire”.



(*) An ion is any atom or group of atoms that bears one or more positive or negative electrical charges. Positively charged ions are called cations, negatively charged ions, anions. Ions are formed by the addition of electrons to, or the removal of electrons from neutral atoms or molecules or other ions; by combination of ions with other particles; or by rupture of a covalent bond between two atoms in such a way that both of the electrons of the bond are left in association with one of the formerly bonded atoms. Examples of these processes include the reaction of a sodium atom with a chlorine atom to form a sodium cation and a chloride anion; the addition of a hydrogen cation to an ammonia molecule to form an ammonium cation; and the dissociation of a water molecule to form a hydrogen cation and a hydroxide anion.



Many crystalline substances are composed of ions held in regular geometric patterns by the attraction of the oppositely charged particles for each other. Ions migrate under the influence of an electrical field and are the conductors of electric current in electrolytic cells.





Electrostatic, when moving , is like a radio frequency wave which has the property of “carrying” various signals, such as: audio, digital information, video signals, color signals and many others. Electrostatics is like a transportation

firm. As FEDEX; UPS and DHL. It carries from South to North all the “ionization” which is free. Watch in the site under IONIC FIELD www.mineoro.com (http://www.mineoro.com/).campo01.htm

Also, a discovery of the inventors Damásio and Alonso.

The insulators above mentioned are all the non-conductive substances. In the detection system – LRDD – the most important insulator, from the point of view of the phenomenom, is the Atmospheric Air. The most electrostatically positive it is, the farther it will carry the negative “ions”.

After the rain, when the atmosphere is negatively charged, the distance of detection is less. Before the rain, some days before, the atmosphere is positively charged and the detection occurs much farther. This is scientifically proved.

It is when there is atmospheric discharge – lighting .



There are different types of electrostatics:



a – Electrostatics coming from Orion Constellation, discovered by USA scientists in 2003.



b – Electrostatics produced by the Earth rotation in the atmospheric space.



c - Electrostatics produced by the central core of the Earth, which travels 12 miles more than the external part of the Planet along the period of an year.



d - Electrostatics produced by parked engines(switched on) or in movement, by ships, planes, cars and a lot more.



f – I, myself, Damásio, typing this message in the computer, in a dry day and moving my chair on a vynil carpet, generate more than 35.000 volts of electrostatics.



g – Any movement we make or which is made produces electrostatics. Our breathing; the movement of our hands; walking, every step, depending on the day and the relative humidity of the air can produce up to 20.000 volts electrostatic or more. And it is very good for our health. We are surrounded by electrostatics during all our lifespan even when we are not aware. Standing up; sitting down; lying in bed; in the bathroom; practising any sport; even in the most sedentary positions we are producing electrostatics. Therefore, all things that surround us, nearby or farther away, produce in some way, electrostatics.

It is just this phenomenom ,one of the strongest interagents in Long Range Detection with Substance Classifier.



9 – An attentive observation and “one more discovery”:



Carefully analizing all the previous information about electrostatics, we infer that, all movement, according to Loeb, creates electrostatics.



‘Static electrification covers all processes for producing segregation of positive and negative electrical charges by mechanical actions which operate by contact or impact between solid surfaces, between solid and liquid surfaces, or in the ruptpre or separation of solid or liquid surfaces by gases or otherwise, including also ionized gases. These involve such processes as frictional, contact, or triboelectrification, spray electrification and electrification in dust, snow or in thunderstorms”



Leonard B. Loeb, Static Electrification, Springer-Verlag, Berlin-Gottingen-Heidlberg, 1958.





So “ions” in movement, just them, would generate electrostatics. It was discovered one more issue that would explain the LRDD. Although in an infinitely small phenomenom, micro, nano , pico, femto or atto phenomenom, the electrostatic phenomenom occurs as well. It is a electrostatics with the characteristic of the substance created by it.

It is the same with a person´s DNA. The negative “ion”, in our case, gold “ion” brings its DNA, that is the energy which will tranport it. The “ion” itself generates that transporting energy.

This explains the substance classifier. When the negative “ion” finds its twin of opposite polarity, they love each other so intensively, that when they get together they provoke a short-circuit autodestroying themselves. As in the Romeo and Juliet movie, both of them die, but the proof of their death is a flask of poison near them; in the same way, our “passionate ions” also leave a proof of their death in “emiting a crash”, which generates an electrical signal so fast as nano, pico, femto or atto seconds , detectable in sensitive electronic circuits and projected for this aim.

The classifier just filters the negative ‘ions”, twin pairs of positivie “ions” produced by the classifier. To this phenomenom, Alonso (60) and Damásio (70) gave the name of “Substance Classifier” or just “Classifier”.

This denomination was necessary to differentiate from the expression “discrimination”, commonly used in other systems of detection by electromagnetic waves.

About the “classifier” it is good to inform that it is possible to manufacture classifiers for other metal and non-metal substances. It is possible to classify blood in its kinds; plants and its kinds; drugs and its kinds, etc. at long distance.

That is why we announced in the media that we are talking about “ A MODERN

INVENTION”.







10 - Ionic Chamber



The ionic/electrostatic chamber consists of the external “antenna” in the form of a black tube, plus an elliptical sensor inserted in the plate of the boardcircuit,

object of your question. This sensor in elliptical shape represents an ionic/electrostatic field reflector, similar to the reflectors used in the antique tv aerials, which had deflectors and reflectores to better concentrate the signal received from VHF. The idea of that ionic/electrostatic reflector was originated in those reflectors.

This sensor reflects and concentrates like a lens part of the energy that escapes and it is not detected by the “antenna” inside the black tube. This ionic/electrostatic energy is reutilized by the “antenna” increasing the detection capacity of the detector and turning the detection more directional. As the detection with electrostatics has the property of polarizing the substrate, an electrical time constant was placed for this depolarization, keeping the sensor neutral to reflect the “ionic/electrostatic” fields.

It is good to clarify that electrostatics reflects, concentrates, disperses, and is carried by metals, conductive wires, etc. The same as dynamic electricity.

When the Directional Detectors is moved into a horizontal or vertical position a static electricity is produced, electrostatics, according to Loeb, necessary in the ionic chamber for the use of positive “ions” which would meet the negative “ions”, producing the phenomenom of Long Range Directional Detection with Substance Classifier, as it was explained before.

The existent electronic circuits are just amplifiers of the “nano” signal supplied at the moment of detection.

The bigger sensor that surrounds the perimeter of the boardcircuit, is a sensor which reinforces the creation of the electrostatic field when moving the detector to locate any target.



11 – Center and Deep



As it was explained, ionization is the process of lossing atomic weight and generation of electrostatics by movement, friction, etc. according to the german scientist Loeb.

When moving the Center & Deep, it generates a ionic/electrostatic field, first by the movement, then by the substance generator of ions inside the Center & Deep chamber. The movement generates a “crash” , as explained before. This phenomenom just occurs when you have already found a target and there is an existent field around the buried object. For this phenomenom to occurs it is not necessary to supply any tension to the Center and Deep. It uses part of the energy which is in the located field.







The explanations detailed here are not exhaustive to the issue of LRDD, however I think they are enough for the time being for you to understand the basis of this new invention. Anyway please feel free to contact me to keep on exchanging ideas about Long Range Detection.









Awaiting your news,





Best Regards,









Damásio & Alonso

Inventors

MINEORO

Long Range Directional Detector with Classifier









JPFD/pce

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Esteban,

I repeat my previous post: as you have a working long range detector you can try to detect a gold/iron ground battery.
Also if it's not like a long buried target I think that near the ground battery it's possible some kind of reaction of the detector...

[Esteban]

FrancoItaly:
In the same way, is more cheap a copper-iron battery or copper-steel or copper-zinc. :)

We conducting this experiment: heat at light Sun for half or 1 hour a regular piece of copper and was detectable at 2 meters... What creates this?

Regarding this: over a copper plate put a zinc piece wich touch in the extremes of the plate. Leave at strong light Sun for half or 1 hour and connect a tester and measure the voltage, this is a galvanic-solar battery.

After the experiment, can cook hot-dogs::D

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Esteban;

Only a problem: I don't like hot-dogs!! ;)

I prefer hot-golds!!! :cool:

[ivconic]

:)
Some details more on Negative Ion detector:
555 circuit generates voltage pulses at an adjustable rate
of between 0.6 and 4 Hz. The amplitude is also adjustable
between 0.xx and xx volts(dependable on type of transformer), in
this case it should be over 15 volts.The highest pulse energy
supplied by the generator is limited to a value of about
0.5mJ when using 10/25 cap.More energy needs higher cap.
In this case it is limited due to fact that a dish is an
"open&free flow" element in present design.555 circuit is
used as astable multivibrator.Output freq.is adjusted with
preset 100K.Bc107 and preset pot.10K form voltage source. The
condenser 10/25 is charged via resistor 4k7.Amplitude is preset with
pot.10k. Output resistance of 555 with cap.474 cause tr. BC337
to conduct 0.5ms of time.Whole action is monitored by flashing led.
Transformer is small signal transformer with 1/1.5 rate. It also
present a typical band pass for only certain freqs.Applying
different transformer would change overall performance and it'll
need quite different design.Secondary output signal of transformer
is rectified
with two diodes due to positive polarisation of the dish.An 105
cap. is coupled on dish side to provide almost continous feeding
with very smooth droops, due to prevent phenomenon reverse "spikes".
A value of 105 could be debated.Also diodes could be reversed due
to reverse polarisation of the dish.Dish is choosen cose of it's
wider plane, also "cage" can be applied, for narrow plane.
Ultra high impendance input is used in a bootstrap manner.Input
resistance is is boosted artificially to a high value.The simmilar
second input is applied with a slice different amp.level.Both are
fed to a diff.amp, and only a slice drift occur on the output.The
rest of the stages need not to be explained and can be be applied in
a various diff. manner.The main idea was to offer a diff. solution
in matter of ions detection....
Now, about metal(ore,gold,relics) detection.
I can agree with J Player in question of efficacy of this design in
long range metal detecting.It still has to be tested. I can also
agree in some Esteban overwievs.I found very interesting that Anker
post. Many of claims in there i can agree with.
Lets presume that it can detect metal burried in to ground deep,and
respecting some claims from Anker's post it should work as well.
But still I can not offer any possibility of discriminating
collected "signals", only a primary choice of detecting negative or
positive ions defined in the design already. Does ions really carry
their origin, I don't know. I dont think so! Also I can not agree
with claim from Anker'post:
"Electrostatic, when moving , is like a radio frequency wave which has the
property of “carrying” various signals, such as: audio, digital information,
video signals, color signals and many others. Electrostatics is like a transportation..."
It is too good to be true!As a radio amateur for over 20 years i do have
some knowledge in that matters.Comparing electrostatic with radio frequency
behaviour....ts!ts!ts! A huge mismatch!!!
and another:
"This explains the substance classifier. When the negative “ion” finds its twin
of opposite polarity, they love each other so intensively, that when they get
together they provoke a short-circuit autodestroying themselves. As in the Romeo
and Juliet movie, both of them die, but the proof of their death is a flask of
poison near them; in the same way, our “passionate ions” also leave a proof of
their death in “emiting a crash”, which generates an electrical signal so fast
as nano, pico, femto or atto seconds , detectable in sensitive electronic circuits
and projected for this aim..."
Again not true! Ions have tendency to adjoin very fast, therefore their journey
does'nt last long! This explain short range detection of ions. Negative ion does'nt
need to find its twin by origin, only by polarity, otherwise polarisation and use of
dish or cage would be a nonsence, or in the present case, device should detect only
ions with Al origin(since i advised Al dish)!!! It's simply not a true!
"...short-circuit autodestroying themselves..."
In that case I am wondering my self about that telescopic antena !? It's gonna
get thin, melt and "die hard", very fast in front of my eyes!?
And so on, and so on. Enough theory!
I can fully agree with J Player's doubt. Let's build that device and check it!
Only problem is where to find a long time burried gold to check it!?
If we know where to find that gold, than we don't need a detector!Ha,ha,ha.
Again J Player noted very smart:
"What Ivconic told us when he posted the schematic is: "Only one claim:
this device at least do something, despite some commercial devices do nothing!"

Yes. I was affraid to be confused by others as a "beleiver".I am skeptic, not a
"beleiver", but still I do have an open mind for alternative stuff, only I do
always insist
on some proofs, double-blind tests...etc.LRL sounds to good to be true.
As a long time prospector I would like most of all that LRL is able to do what
some people claims. It will turn my prospecting in to a easy walk on the field,
and put some easy money in my pockets.Sad but true it is not a case so far.
But as i really do have an open mind i still grow hope that some day LRL can be
a reallity for all people not just for "chosen" one.
regards!

P.S.
This ion detector is still very interesting, and I would like to see some
mods here, esspecially on the second stage, where the output signal is processed
after the diff.amp. I think that part of design is poor and need some
improvements.Can anybody post schematic of buffer stage after that diff. amp
for both: audio and scale metter.FrancoItaly noticed that 1mF tantal and the rest
on the right side can be better designed.I can agree.Anybody has any idea?
(people! show some schematics like Esteban,not just retorics...)

[Carl-NC]

I have been out-of-town, trying to catch up on everything... this is a very interesting thread, and exactly what this forum is intended for. Thanks for all the contributions.

Just a note... when you upload an attachment (image), please keep the size reasonable... 600-800 pixels wide is ideal.

- Carl

[Anker]

The Regard!

For checking the functioning the scheme of the detector possible to do the artificial generator "golden" negative (or positive) ion. This will imitate long ago hidden gold in ground. It is Enough to do the needle (the edge) from gild and tax on it for the land high power. The Device to execute in the manner of sticks, which possible install in the ground and provide the contact with the ground, on the other end of the stick - a generator ion. Now possible try to take the receiver on a certain distance flow blown off wind "golden" ion.

[J_Player]

In response to Esteban's and Ivconic's posts, I also would like to see a test that shows whether this machine can locate buried treasure. Since

Estaban has a test area with long buried targets samples, we already have a good test bed among the readers in this forum. And we have the circuit and expertise to build the ion detector machine.
I propose that an inexpensive ion detector is built using Ivconic's circuit and then tested to locate targets that have been buried a long time. This circuit can be built on 2 or 3 hobby perf-boards for a very low cost, and the antenna and dish can be salvaged for no cost. When this machine is completed and tested for finding ions, then I propose we use Esteban's test area to see how well the ion detector works. Then we can test the machine to see if it tells us where to find the targets.

This is how I propose that we can do this: First, Ivconic should build the detectror circuit and tune it and test it to insure that it works for collecting ions. Then send only the circuit boards to me along with trim pots connected (this is to make inexpensive shipping cost). I will install new batteries and build a new enclosure and dish and antenna. I will make preliminary tests to adjust the detector so it detects ions from known ion sources. Once it works, then I will go to Esteban's sample field along with any other forum members who want to watch, and we can see how well this machine works at locating the buried samples. This will also be a good opportunity to test the iron "ground battery" effects that Franco talks about.

I propose this test only if Ivconic and Esteban are willing to proceed. If Ivconic and Esteban are interested in testing this negative ion machine on Esteban's long-buried target sample field, then please contact me and make arrangements. J_Player59 at hotmail.

PS. I will also bring hot dogs for zinc grill, but would be better carne asada burritos.http://thunting.com/geotech/forums/images/icons/icon10.gif

My more detailed comments about the posts are below.

[J_Player]

Thank you Esteban, Anker, Franco and Ivconic for your information about using the negative ion detector.

Esteban has provided a very detailed method to use the ion detector. His method is to walk with the machine in hand, swinging the machine right and left as you walk. The machine should be held at a 90 degree angle away from the body while swinging it right to left and looking for variations in the signal. This method sounds similar to the method of using a conventional coil metal detector, except the ion detector is held at arm's height above the ground while walking perhaps a little faster than a person with a coil type detector would walk. When the target is located by a rapid rise in the signal, then it is pinpointed by walking in the other direction, similar to a method of pinpointing a target with a coil type deteector. Esteban cautions us to use the ion detector inland in locations away from high voltage power lines and other interference.

According to Esteban's explanation, the ion detector can be expected to locate ions or electrostatic field gradients in the vicinity of the buried target, but only if the target had been buried for a number of years. He says the buried metal target will develop an electric field around it or a field like the field surrounding a pole of a battery. This field is responsible for the signal seen on the negative ion detector according to Esteban.

According to Franco's theory, a ground battery can be made by putting 2 dissimilar metal objects in the ground 2 meters apart. And this ground battery can be detected with the ion detector because of the electric field of the ground battery. He apparently is talking about metal objects that have been recently placed in the ground.

Anker has posted the theory of operation of the Mineoro LRLs as told by a Damásio & Alonso from the Mineoro company. Portions of the Mineoro letter agree with statements that Esteban and Franco made about ions and electric fields. Much of this letter is simply theories advanced by Damásio & Alonso from Mineoro to explain their understanding of how the Minero devices work.

Ivconic returned and made comments to indicate he a skeptic who does not know if this machine can find treasure. He considers it only an electronic device that measures changes in the ion density in the air, and more testing is needed to see if it can locate long buried gold. After noting a mumber of apparent errors in Damásio & Alonso's theories, he goes on to say that he would like to see improvements in the signal processing portion of the ion detector.

My commentary is as follows:

1. Now we have a method of using the Ion detector, and an explanation of how it can be used to locate buried treasures from Esteban.

2. Ivconic asks about mods in the signal processing after the differential amp. I suppose any kind of signal processing can be done if we first know what we want to find out about the signal. If you want to find audio signals, then you can add a circuit with an adjustable bandpass filter that feeds to a small audio amp or rectifier to a meter. I would think that until we know what we are looking for the best information about the signal can be seen on an oscillosope. By testing the ion detector with different targets and looking at the signal with an oscilloscope, we can learn what are the important features of the signal to look for when locating treasures. After the testing is done, then we can easily build circuits that measure the treasure information in the signal.

Concerning the field and battery effect of buried objects, and how the ion detector senses the location of the object:

3. Battery effect not so strong as a commercial battery: We all know that if we put dissimilar metals in an electrolyte, we can expect a current to flow in a wire connected between the metals. We know there are ions being created and destroyed at the poles of the battery. These ions are generally confined to the electrolyte and they do not migrate to the atmosmphere in any significant amount for most batteries. Most of the ionic action takes place while a battery is being discharged or charged. A lesser amount of ionic activity occurs in a battery that is not connected to an active circuit. In order for a "ground battery" to work, it seems there must be moisture in the ground where the poles of the battery are. There must also be an electrolyte dissolved in the moisture. In the case of buried gold, which is considered inert, and any ions formed will be very small amount of gold atoms combining with the electrolyte (probably a salt of chlorine or a sulfate in the presence of moisture will form the electrolyte). If a few of the gold atoms combine with the electrolyte, then still the gold will become a cathode, as it is the least reactive of the metals to be found in the ground. The anode will be nearly any other element in the near vicinity of the buried gold which has contact with the same mousture and electrolyte. Nearly all common metals are more reactive than gold, and will become the anode if in close proximity to the gold. The most likely metal would be iron (black sands, magnetite, etc. In the regions where natural gold nuggets are found, we often find silver, copper, lead and traces of other metals. Any of these metals present could also become an anode. The anode would be decomposing as it reacted with the electrolyte, while the gold would remain relatively intact. If this "ground battery" were to be 100% efficient (as good as a gold/iron battery made in a laboratory with a suitable electrolyte), then the battery would develop less than 2 volts. The "ground battery" is not in these ideal conditions, and can be expected to develop a lower voltage and fewer ions. In many cases The ground battery has only damp soil or sands to form the electrolyte from elements in contact with the moisture.

4. Ionic activity from the "ground battery": There may be a mechanism by which airborne ions are sensed in a higher concentration above the buried target. I doubt that the mechanism is from Ions leaving the soil and migrating upwards through the air to the ion detector dish. If for some unexplained reason ions were leaving the buried target soil at a high rate, then it is not likely these ions would hover above the target without blowing away in the wind. I don't know what the actual mechanism is, but I doubt the detector is sensing ions that moved from the electrolyte of the "ground battery" to the air above, where the detector is located at arm'sheight. A simple experiment could be made to test this theory: Place a large plastic bag over the ground were the target is buried. place a similar bag over the ground where no target is buried. After waiting a few hours for the ions to accumulate in the bag, close the bottom of both bags and move them to where the ion detector is. You should now be able to sense a very high concentration of airborne ions from the bag that was over the target, but not from the other bag. My opinion is that if the ion detector finds more ion signal in the air above the area where the gold is buried, then these ions being detected did not originate in the ground electrolyte from the battery. There may be some connection to the underground gold, but it is hard for me to believe that ion migration into the air is the answer.

5. Electric field from ground battery: An electric field will exist in a battery which shows a voltage across the poles. This electric field is no stronger than the voltage over the distance that separates the poles. That is to say it is a very weak electric field, less than 2 volts over the distance between the gold and other metal in the damp soil. There also may be some mechanism that causes increased electric field measured at arm's height in the air above the buried target. I doubt this mechanism is the electric field produced from the ground battery effect. The 9v batteries that power the ion detector have a stronger electric field than the ground battery can create from it's electrolytic voltage generation (if it does in fact create a voltage). Consider: In dry air, it takes about 4000 volts to create a strong enough electric field that the air will ionize enough to throw a spark 1 cm. The static electric field that you can pick up from walking on the gound can easily become higher than this. The electric field caused by atmospheric conditions can be much greater than this. It is hard for me to imagine the ion detector measuring an electrical field from a source less than 2 volts under the ground when there are so many stronger electric fields from stray sources in the air where the detector is. I may be wrong, but It would be interesting to see some tests that tell us the answer.

In conclusion, I dont' say that the ion detector does not respond to a buried target. I say only that if it responds to a buried target, then the reason why it responds does not seem to be exactly the same as theories we have heard so far.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

I noticed in Ivconic's circuit that there is not capacitor between pin 2/6 and ground of LM555' stage, this capacitor would determine the output frefrequency..

[Dell Winders]

In conclusion, I dont' say that the ion detector does not respond to a buried target. I say only that if it responds to a buried target, then the reason why it responds does not seem to be exactly the same as theories we have heard so far.

In my opinion, the Mineoro, does NOT actually detect the presence of an underground target. It does detect the "field" of the target at the surface above the ground. With other electronic LRL instruments I've detected the discriminated "field's" of concentrations of clusters of Gold from an aircraft at altitudes as much as 3000 feet above the earth.

In the early 1990's a NOVA TV documentary showed a division of NASA had developed the same method of discriminating the "field" of underground anomalies from an aircraft. The difference was we had spent about $70,000 to develop an analog prototype, and the division of NASA had invested over $1 million in a computerized version. We both used conventional geophysical methods and Ground truthing to verify our locations.

The idea of long time buried Gold being detectable vs freshly buried Gold not being detectable was originated by Claude Cochran, an LRL super salesman during the late 1989's as a competetive advertising scheme.

In my experience, It is true that the deeper fresh Gold is buried, the longer it will take for the "Field" to reach the surface where the "field' might be detected. Certain geologic conditions appear to not allow the concentrated earth "field" around some sub-terrain Gold buried even for thousands of years to ever reach the surface and therefore not all Gold will be detectable using this Remote sensing concept.

In my Field testing of the Mineoro, I used a 1 ounce Gokl Krugerand, lieing on the surface of the ground to tune the Mineoro, and specifically to determine if the target SOF was strong enough to be within the Mineoro's operating limitations. When the SOF was strong, the Mineoro, detected the unburied Gold from a distance of 12-15 feet. When SOF conditions were weak, the Mineoro would not detect the "field" of the un-buried Gold, and also, it would not detect the "field" of the long time buried Gold either. This is consistent with All LRL's I've used, or tested, whether electronic, or non-electronic.

At least some understanding of the Physics that are being applied are an integral part to the electronic development this remote sensing concept.

I hope my field experience provides some "food for thought". Good Luck!

"WHAT HAS BEEN DONE, CAN BE DONE" Dell

[Esteban]

Hi IONFINDERS!!!

Some considerations:

1. I have different "proof fields" and sometimes I don't obtain the necessary signal to conclude if work or not work X experimental machine or X Mineoro model. So, my team and I makes short (one day) or large trips (3-4 days) for to examine the situation. As treasure can't find all the days and also as nobody knows where is it, decide to probe this "gadgets" in natural fields. The more secure sites you can probe to respond your devices are battlefields, soldiers encampments, ruins or old houses. In this sites there are real old targets and we can to comprobe the efectivesness or not of different machines.

2. Long distance detector (10, 20, 30, 40 50 m are long distance for me) needs delicate threshold adjustment (sensibility in the limit) in stable point. With this characteristics, is possible to find conductive targets.

3. Very wet ambient shortcircuited the field.

4. Sunny days are better.

5. Ferriferous soils in high iron's concentration (main in zone of iron mines) nulliffy the signal for small items. Don't know for treasure, maybe not.

[J_Player]

Ummm... Dell,

This thread is about an electronic ion detector, not about any Mineoro device. The ion detector we are discussing is wholly an electronic device that works with standard electronic circuitry. There are no bait loads or treasure frequencies involved, only a standard circuit to detect negative ions the same as any commercially available negative ion detector. This machine is in no way related to the Mineoro machine from the previous thread.

But as long as you opened the topic, when will you find time to answer the questions I ased about the Mineoro machine and other LRLs in your TA forum? Please answer the questions in that thread rather than here where we are discussing the refinements of an electronic ion detector.

In my opinion you probably know more about the principles of LRL detection than anyone else using a Mineoro type device. It would be interesting to see how they work in your opinion. Are you aware that at least one of the scientists who built the NASA LRL that discriminated the field of underground anomolities was a closet dowser, hesitant to let his colleagues know that he sometimes used "L" rods to confirm their findings?

[FrancoItaly]

HI J PLAYER

It’s true that ground battery formed by gold and other metals/minerals it gives low voltage, may be 1 volt or less, but for long buried gold the battery takes up 50 meters or plus in all directions and the voltage can appear to the ground surface. 1 volt is 1/100 of the static atmospheric voltage at 1 meter above the ground and it may be detected easy by every home made electronic instrument. Ordinary metal detectors work with signal less than 1 mV…

[J_Player]

Hi Franco,

You may be right. Maybe the ion detector will find the ground battery. Maybe I am wrong and atmospheric interference is not so strong as obscure the field from the ground battery when measuring the air ions. Keep in mind that when ordinary metal detectors measure less than 1 mv signal, this is induced voltage from eddy currents that were caused by the search coil. The ordinary metal detector is detecting an electromagnetic wave that is expected to arrive at a very specific time (PI), or a deformity in the elelctromagnec field of the search coil (non-PI). This is not the same as trying to detect static electric fields 4 feet above the ground.

I think it is time to build the ion detector and find out what it will measure. Then we can see for ourselves what it will measure and will not measure. This machine is very inexpensive to build. most of the parts are cheap or free from salvged equipment. My problem is I do not have the proper facility to construct the circuit. I can build the mechanical part if someone else builds the circuit boards with electronics.

So far nobody except Estseban has given us any practical information how to use this machine, and I think the only way we will learn how it works is to build the detector and learn from experience.

[Dell Winders]

I guess what I am trying to say is that it appears to me that all these types of devices operate on the same principles of physics with slightly different variations of application.

The one common denominator that I have observed is that 18 years of residual effects of Solar magnetic activity greatly affects the operation of all these devices, as well as Magnetometer, and to a lesser degree the depth penetration of conventional metal detectors.

The conditions when these electronic, or non-electronic devices will work, or will not work, has been consistently predictable whether I am using electronic metering, or a pair of Dowsing rods to meter the Strength of Field (SOF) suffecient for these devices to operate.

To put it bluntly, there are magnetic conditions and fluxuations in which none of these devices will function effeciently, or will even work. This can be a problem with testing your design.

I was using the Mineoro, as an example because you were speaking of an Ion detector, which is the scientific principle the Mineoro, claims to be using.

I have never field tested the posted schematic, but If this schematic is indeed intended as a Gold discriminating Ion detector, and comparing it with the Mineoro field results, I suspect it will be affected by the same limitations as all other LRL remote sensing devices, whether electronic, or non-electronic.

Not that I personally care, but I'm trying to be helpful by suggesting it as a consideration in your modifications of componnents to be included in the schematic.

I probably am intruding in the electronic engineering, which admittedly I know nothing about. Sorry! I mean no offense. I'll stay out of it, unless asked. Dell

[ivconic]

:p
"First, Ivconic should build the detectror circuit and tune it and test it to insure that
it works for collecting ions. Then send only the circuit boards to me along with trim pots
connected (this is to make inexpensive shipping cost)."
Huh! A whole cost to build that ions detector would be $20-$30, for you J PLayer.Since I am
living in Europe, in Serbia, what do you mean, how much it is gonna take for me to send to
you assmebled pcb!? Incuding shipment and anoyance through post and other stuff. Serbia is not
even a member of european community, so there is no way to send enything by usual channels
like it is a case in the rest of Europe.Costs would overcome $100 and more!Forget about that.
If you want to check that device than you have to build it yourself.
I made it for some time. It is working and it is detecting ions for real.
I checked it as follows:
I made a long time ago a Tesla coil, which is producing a high voltage, over the 5000 volts.
I added to it a typical tv cascade to obtain higher voltage, over 17 000 Volts. Output is
connected to a metal ball. In it's nearby (aprox. 15cm) is a ground plate.So when is switched on
it produce a giant sparks, and you can see a voltage crossing through the air....etc.
I guess all of you already know about Tesla's coils, and how they are working.
It is producing a clouds of ions in no time! In a minute or two my lab is full of them and i can
even feel and smell ionizied air. It has pleasant taste an it is good for respiration for a
10-20 minutes per day. It is a sort of ozone. Now, what you have to do is to switch on the
detector and you gonna detect ions easy. Because the concentration in a closed space is on
a high level, i repeated a test outdoor of my house. The detection is still good,loud and
clear.I was rambled backwards for about 20 metres and the detection was still unchanged.
On 21. metre the detection decay a bit by bit as i rambled more.After aprox. 25 metres there
was no detection any more. So it seems that it's shows all the results by this test.
About burried metals i don't know really. I do have a sort of test field with coins,metal
pieces and one big,old transmission from some used car, burried in about 2 metres deep.
I tried to detect it with no results at all! It was some clicking in the speaker but as any
where else on the field, nothing like a real detection!
That's why i posted some ideas about improving late stages on the device.
I think that input stage is good enough.I think that problem is with a further processing.
One more thing, during the test i switched off a 555 part of the device, and guess what?
The detection was attenuated appreciably, and some other weak noises occured.
So the 555(polarisation of dish) is acting very important role in the project.
Right now that device is reassembled on the desk and wait for improvements. I was thinking
to do that by my own, but have no idea.So i decide to stop for a while and wait for some
better solutions. Since i am working parallel on several projects like resistivity meter,
copy of some IB Minelab, one MD3007 and one PI, i am very abstracted to think only on
this project. That's why i posted schematic here and wait for your opinions. And it seems
very productive, all of your posts shows some good ideas here.
I am very restless to see somebody's else expirience with this ionic detector.
......
FrancoItaly
"I noticed in Ivconic's circuit that there is not capacitor between pin 2/6 and ground
of LM555' stage, this capacitor would determine the output frefrequency.."
JESUS !!!! It is true ! I am sorry i missed that! Here is a reclamation....

regards!

[J_Player]

Hi Ivconic,

You are right. It is not a good idea to send a circuit. The cost of the parts is not a problem for me. I cannot build this circuit because I do not have the facilities to build and test it. It will be another 6 months before I have the proper tools and test meters to make simple circuit boards with electronics like the ion detector. So we will need to rely on someone else to build and test this machine.

It seems to me that this machine will only detect ions. If we want more information from the signal then first we must know what kind of information we are looking for. I expect many of the variations will depend on where we move the dish. But maybe there are signal variations that come from different targets. The variations in signal from different targets can only be found by experimenting with known targets.

One idea you could try is to put an iron rod in the ground 2 meters away from where you buried the targets, and see if the detector will find the electric field from the "ground battery" as Franco says.

[J_Player]

Hi Dell,

Thanks for the tips. You are answering some of the questions I asked in another thread. I suppose you have chosen to post your answers here instead of the TA forum. Your comments do appear to apply to the negative ion detector, but they are really comments aboout LRLs in general. In order that you will have a proper place to elaborate, I will open a new thread, restating what you have said about SOF and LRLs where we can ask questions without straying away from the ion detector. Your information should be good for all LRLs that work on the principles you are talking about, and will be a valuable resource for all who want to know the theory of how LRLs work from an expert with decades of experience. Look for the new thread.

Thanks in advance for the help in LRL theory

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All,

I don't think that Ivconics' ion detector is only a traditional instrument, I find very interesting the first stage of LM555, this is not only a way to increase tha battery voltage as we can have a better efficiency with a more suitable frequency, but the very low frequency plays an important role. I'm sure that on the Dish there is a little AC component and I ask to Ivconic if He can meausure the voltage on the Dish with a analogue voltmeter: the needle should be to tremble.
I have tested a LM358 circuit with many trasformers ( I have not a old modem to sacrifice!) at very low frequency and the output voltage is very poor, only few volts and I doubt that it's possible to obtain 15 volt with a frequency of only 1 Hz.

[J_Player]

It would be interesting to add some filter circuitry to the charging circuit that can be switched on and off. Then we could see if the filtered charging makes any difference when looking for ions. It also seem that if this charging frequency plays a part in the ion detection, then we might see differences when we change the frequency at the 555. I would suggest that if this frequency is adjusted, it might be good to add a circuit that automatically adjusts the gain at BC107 to keep the dish voltage constant.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

The best solution in my opinion for the LM555 stage it's a DC to DC conversion by an oscillator of 1 khz or more in according with resonance frequency of the trasformer and then we may use LM555 oscillator or 2 X BC107 as astable
multivibrator with a voltage up to 50 volt. I think that the voltage on Dish is it' subordinate to its physical dimentions.
My next steep will be to build a mix of ZAHORI and Ivconics' circuit without LM555 stage and with a only stage in high impedance imput... I think that ZAHORI it was the founder of the long range family... perhaps also Minero...

[ivconic]

To FrancoItaly
Franco You can not possibly expect LM358 to act like 555 !?
Power supply is already 9V ! As I told before, no need for regulator at
all.That is the catch!Concerning all mentioned just remember a transf.
rate 1/1.5 (aprox....it should be a bit more).And freq.can vary from
1-5Hz (i think).Voltage is aprox. 15 v. We don't have to be neat in %.
About AC component, yes there is a "microscopic" tremble.About those
rect.diodes....they can be debated so.About other transformers...I
really don't know, I never tried any other type.56K modems, here are
very cheap 5-6 euros, mostly "made in China" stuff.But transformer
has some code I mentioned before, and I met some types with Motorola
logo on.Resistance is 45 ohm and 75 ohm, although my DVM maybe is not
so precise.
...............
I agree J Player.
...............
One more thing again.I would rather pay attention to improve stage which
comes after second TLC272. Until that point everything looks nice to me.
It will take more stages,buffers...i don't know. It just has to be
experimented with.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi Ivconics,
For our purpose I think that the LM358, double single supply operational,it can easy replace the LM555: it has a frequency range of 1 Mhz and a current output of 50 ma...
I use it very often and I have a circuit board with this IC for ewperimental uses. Do you have measured a voltage of 15 Volts between Dish and ground?

[FrancoItaly]

Hi All

Look for theese link:

http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html (http://www.vlf.it/kurt/elf.html)

http://www.vlf.it/Schumann/schumann.htm (http://www.vlf.it/Schumann/schumann.htm)

http://www.vlf.it/below150/below150.htm (http://www.vlf.it/below150/below150.htm)

http://www.vlf.it/parmigiani-frozen/frlight.htm (http://www.vlf.it/parmigiani-frozen/frlight.htm)

A Ulf receiver with an E-field antenna it’s very similar to an ion detector, it can receive Schumann frequency, it may be that ground battery troubles Schumann signals?

[Esteban]

Here a lot of interesting projects:

http://www.vlf.it/

[J_Player]

Nice the links, Franco and Esteban.

It seems that these experimenters are interested in the frequencies they are seing displayed on an oscilloscope, while the ion detector is only looking at relative changes in the static ion/electric fields.

If we were to look at the signal at the output of the ion detector on an oscilloscope, then we would be able so see if there are frequencies or noise being sensed at the antenna. This Ion detector should be as sensitive as the detectors in the links shown above if we have a way to see the signal coming from the antenna better than a speaker and analog meter. The oscilloscope shown in the first link is actually a PC that uses the signal converter (probably on the sound card) to display the signl from the sensior circuit. I presume the processed signal is sent into the microphone input or line input, then converted to a voltage that is displayed as an audio wave would be done. The author wrote a C program to create a proper graphic interface that will display the signal with the same scaling as an occilloscope.

He used the inexpensive method instead of using an ordinary oscilloscope. But either way, the key is to find a method to see the full spectrum of the signal that is coming in when we move the dish to different locations with different targets.

A second comment about the low frequency signals that were found on the links above: Many of these signals are man-made signals, For example the low frequency signals that submarines use to communicate from deep under the oceans, and other man-made signals used in power transmission, telemetry, and studies of astronomy, etc. Also, some of these signals appear to be naturally occuring signals which originate in far space, while others seem to originate from within the earth or the earth's atmosphere.
With all these stray signals that are easily measured with sensitive instruments, we are interested in discriminating the signal that will be present when a treasure is in the proximity of the detector.

It is our goal to scan the naturally occuring signals until we see they change in a way that will make us expect there is gold or silver influencing these signals. This is why I think our first step is to take a close look at what signals our sensor is picking up, and learn what are the naturally occuring signals that we should expect. We also need to learn what common environmental anomalies will cause a chang in the signal, so we can predict what should be considered a trash target and what is a good target. This means we should learn what is the influence of a tree nearby, a building, a car driving by, or an airplane, or perhaps how the signal can be expected to change at different times of the day, or different sunspot activity or lunar tides, etc. By becoming familiar with these common influences, we can compensate the detector so it will not confuse us when we are looking for a target.

It seems to me the first step is to connect an oscilloscope to the detector.

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J PLAYER

You have fixed very good the main points of our “problem” . I have a 20 Mhz oscilloscope and other instruments in my lab but I don’t have a portable computer for external measurements.In the past time I have designed a vlf receiver in the range of 500 Hz – 50 Khz with a 2 ferrite coils as antenna and a VCF, a voltage controlled pass band filter, as tuning. Now I can achieve a ULF receiver in the range of 3 – 30 Hz with an E-Field antenna, a very high impedance amplifier, a VCF (I use CA3080 operational), a rectifier stage with a meter. By this “instrument” it would be possible to scan the above mentioned frequencies and to find possible anomaly in the ground (perhaps ground battery, my obsession !!!). I think it’s necessary to use a long handle, like a metal detector, for avoiding body’s influence.

[J_Player]

Hi Franco,

If you have no way to take an aocilloscope in the field, then your filter circuit to detect 3-30 hz can help see the lower end of the spectrum. You should also be able to hear the spectrum from 30-1200 hz on the speaker or headphones.

Here is another Idea: Ther are low-power cmos phase locked loop chips that will follow a frequency, and can be used in conjunction with a cmos decade counter that could change the frequency of what you sense on the signal. The decade counter can take the frequency of the input signal and divide by 10 to allow you to hear signals in the 12,000 to 120,000 hz range, or cascade a second counter for higher frequencies. The input signal to these counters would be sent through a schmidt trigger first with an adjustable threshold to set the sensitivity. I believe the cmos PLL has both an analog and digital input, and the analog signal threshold can be adjusted with trimpots.

These decade counters can also be used to multiply the low frequencies to 10 times higher, so they will produce an audible tone. This is done by using the phase locked loop's oscillator to clock the counter at a rate 10 times faster than the antenna signal, then using the carry from the counter to sync the PLL frequency. The only problem with this frequency multiplier scheme is the amplitude of the signal is lost after the digital stages. Perhaps the amplitude could be recovered by putting the digital signal and the filtered antenna signal into a comparator. The digital signal will have a known voltage, while the filtered antenna signal can be compared and the output could set the gain on the audio amplifier.

If any of this circuitry was to be built, then It would look like a control knob that you adjust to several positions: F/10, Fx1, Fx10, Fx100. Similar to sweep time constants on an oscilloscope, while you listen for the sounds.

It seems to me that a meter is ok for a simple indicator of signal. Audio will tell a lot more information because you can hear frequencies and amplitudes. But oscilloscope is still the best because you will see many things that cannot be heard, and you will be able to enlarge any small detail that you want to see closer. I have seen some small portable oscilloscopes on ebay. Some of the older ones seem like they sell cheap, and can be connected to an inverter at your car battery. Here is an example... maybe there are inexpensive deals like this in your area... http://cgi.ebay.com/Oscilloscope-BK-Precision-1405-potable-light-weight_W0QQitemZ5872489925QQcategoryZ3284QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem

[FrancoItaly]

Hi J PLAYER

Thank’ for your hints, I use often the PLL CD4046, it’s a great integrated circuit that has a stable and very linear VCO…

[ivconic]

Hi,people!

I am very busy these days, I simply can not follow you in this very
interesting thread. But ideas are more than inspirative. I would
tell you again, let's just leave for a moment a 555 stage. It is
working just fine and no need for any mods.Let's just focus on further
signal analyze after the second TL272.
Second, I was thinking already to make some experiments with VLF
bellow 150 kHz.Not original at all, I know. Just look at the GISCO
EMFAD UG12, which is basic primer. I was thinking to use already
existent VLF signals from remote TX's as it is the case in UG12.
But further talking about that will dilute this subject of ion detector.
Somebody ask about dish dimensions.It is stated on schematic.
I also made experiment with one plate taken from old 8" ancient hard
disk as a "dish". It will need some experiments too. Many mails come
to me with a questions about real ion detection on the field. It seems
that some people had just skim visits on this thread.People,read this
thread and every post letter by letter! Many questions are already
answered here.It is not productive to talk about same questions here
again and again.(This is not addressed to the registered members here).