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Offline Which-Way?Topic starter
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« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2010, 08:16:34 pm »
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Yes I agree, however we maybe able to see if there are any trails that were established through that area.  If no, then take a look at the topography and see what is a likely trail when pulling wagons and traveling as a group. That may narrow down the search area before more specific resarch into Seneca legends.  Also I had seen a sight which linked to some Jesuit maps.  I need to find it again, it was in one of the other groups.  I am not sure of the time frame or area.

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Offline BitburgAggie_7377
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« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2010, 09:59:15 pm »
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Which-Way?, be aware that when Seldom says Wrecking Crew, he means Wrecking Crew.   We have a not only to look for every lead we can possibly find, but to also try to poke as many holes in them as we can.  At times, it can be almost brutal.  But, hopefully, what we come up with in the end should be useable.

BA

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« Reply #12 on: October 15, 2010, 01:48:30 am »
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Hello All

Thank you Which-way way for an interesting post. I have not heard that Senecas treasure legend before?

And Thank you Seldom for the wonderful information you found on the legend.

I am with BA on this one. So it forced  me to due a little digging.

Do you think it possible that this alleged earlier story is a corruption of another story about the French explorations in the area?


I have some thing else that may or may not be connected to the legend?

In 1749 the French sent Celoron de Blainville down the Allegheny and Ohio Rivers as a show of force to the British. Blainville buried lead plates at major river junctures along the way as proof of French ownership. Bonnecamps accompanied the expedition and prepared this manuscript map that is now at the Bibliotheque Nationale in Paris. It shows 'Lac' Ontario and Erie and the route down the Allegheny, the Ohio, up the Great Miami River and then down the Maumee back to Lake Erie. Bonnecamps' journal and map appear in the Jesuit Relations and the map is reproduced in Smith's Mapping of Ohio and in Hanna, which is the image shown here.

This lead plaque was placed at the junction of the Kanawha and Ohio Rivers in 1749 by Captain Pierre Joseph C?leron de Blainville. Five other plates were laid along other tributaries of the Ohio River to assert France's claims to all the lands watered by those rivers. Under its 1609 charter, Virginia claimed those lands, too. News of the lead plates reached Williamsburg and young George Washington was sent west to expel the French. This is the only plaque that survives intact.

Translation of the Lead Plate Buried at Point Pleasant

In the year 1749, reign of Louis XV., King of France, We, Celeron, commandant of a detachment sent by Monsieur the Marquis de la Galissoniere, Commandant General of New France, to re-establish tranquillity in some Indian villages of these cantons, have buried this plate at the mouth of the river Chinodashichetha, the 18th August, near the river Ohio, otherwise Beautiful River, as a monument of renewal of possessions, which we have taken of the said river Ohio, and of all those which fall into it, and of all the lands on both sides, as far as to the sources of said rivers; the same as were enjoyed or ought to have been enjoyed, by the preceding Kings of France, and that they have maintained it by their arms and by treaties, especially by those of Ryswick, Utrecht, and Aix-la- Chapelle.



What I find interesting is that the alleged gold treasure was alleged buried near a rock. One of the lead plates was allegedly buried near this rock called God rock.



Indian God Rock is found along the banks of the Allegheny River in Western Pennsylvania. The rock has been an eminent landmark for centuries to those who have voyaged the Allegheny. Ancient petroglyphs found on its surface have given it a lasting notoriety. The symbols found on the rock were carved hundreds of years ago. They could date back as far as 1200 A.D. It is still unknown who put them there or exactly when.

The hard sandstone rock is about 20 feet long and 14 feet wide. It is situated on about a 45? angle. The figures drawn on the rock represent different animals, man and there are some bows & arrows which probably typify hunting. The inscriptions on the rock have been worn down over the years due to annual high water and ice jams but they are still readable. Some ethnologists believe they are Algonquin in origin. The Algonquin were a tribe whose territory included this area long ago. They say it is not the work of the Seneca tribe who occupied the area later.

Early settlers noticed that the local Indians had much reverence for the rock and thus named it "Indian God Rock". Ironically, American Indians worshipped no idols or images other than the Great Spirit. There is evidence that it was known before whites settled in the area.

In 1749 de Celeron of France buried several lead plates claiming the Allegheny and surrounding area for the kingdom of France. One of the plates was buried near Indian God Rock. He described the location as a large rock with many crude figures engraved on it. He placed the rock "four leagues" below the French Creek tributary of the Allegheny River. The rock is about 7 miles south of French Creek which flows into the Allegheny in Franklin, PA.

Extensive excavations of the area around the rock have been done but the lead plate was never found. It may have washed away or been stolen. There was a plan to relocate the rock to a nearby park in Franklin but that didn't happen. It was feared the rock might be damaged. The only access to the rock today is by boat or bike. Several years ago, a paved bike trail was put down over an abandoned railroad bed. An observation platform was built next to the trail overlooking Indian God Rock. In 1984 it was placed on the National Register of Historic Places.

Perhaps the Seneca treasure legend is based on this 1749 event?

Hardluck




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Offline agresor11
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« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2010, 02:24:07 am »
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hm... this? hm...

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« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2010, 03:06:26 am »
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Hello All

Here is a more detailed map of the 1749 expedition and approximate locations of the plates.

Hardluck.

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Offline Which-Way?Topic starter
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« Reply #15 on: October 15, 2010, 06:31:53 am »
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Hello Hardluck,
Of course it is very possible that legends have crossed.  That was an awesome input and I will be going to the Indian God Rock, just to see it.  I will be curious if I can take some chalk ?rubbings? of it.  However it will probably be in spring before I can get out there.

It actually makes a little more sense,  that if the voyagers were going to offload their cargo that it would done closer to a waterway.  I am not a historian and I am  unsure what type of water craft they would have used for the trip, but it had bothered me how they had transferred the cargo from the water so far inland, if they had indeed transported it, as far as the Borie Valley.  But again I have not done any real research as of yet.  That is my winter plan for when work slows down.

 I had read in one of the other sites two other inputs referring to this. 
1)   Hunters (unaware of the legend) had in recent years seen a rock while hunting, with a cross carved in it. There was no mention of possible age, size, ect. 
2)   A treasure hunter had spoken with an older woman from the area was aware of the rock and that it was destroyed (blown apart) years ago to clear for a new roadway. 
The stories obviously contradict and neither have been verified, to my knowledge.


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« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2010, 11:46:05 am »
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I am not finding any info about this treasure in the printed word with the exception of one of Jameson"s books. Granted most of my library is about Texas the gulf coast and the southwest but still if this treasure is real there should be more info on it.

Right now I am with Hardluck thinking that the lead plate and gold coins tails got mixed up.

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« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2010, 05:51:33 pm »
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Hello All

Another thing with this Treasure legend. The events allegedly happened around 1690 and they came from New Orleans?

New Orleans did not exist until 1718. Another thing why would anyone logically travel upstream in open rafts in uncharted hostile region with heavy gold to begin with. Even if the gold came from New Orleans it would of been much safer and easier and quicker to ship the gold to Montreal.

In the 1690 there large areas held by the Seneca Indians and the governor of New France finally took the war to them around 1796. There was a treasure held up for delivery. But it was not gold but Beaver pelts. They were highly fashionable in Europe at the time.

The more I dig into this legend the more I see how the treasure legend evolved. However there is an amazing historical treasure to be found and that is the remaining plates left by the French from 1749.

Oral history can be interesting however with each retelling the story changes.

There is an old term for this that is not politically correct these days called " Chinese whispers"

It was once a fun parlor game before advent of TV. It is easy to do with a large group of people tell one person the story and tell them to tell some one else to do the same and pass it on. But the time it gets back to you it will be changed. People have selective memory and add things in there retelling of the story.

Try it the next time your at a gathering you will be amazed.

Hardluck

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« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2010, 06:17:38 pm »
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You right on all points Hardluck I got to go to the library tomorrow will see if I can find anything new.

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« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2010, 06:36:16 pm »
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One thing for sure. That area is still a bit of wilderness and not easily traversed. Probably need some local deer hunters for assistance to do any "look-seeing". GPS would be hard to use also. Of course we will have to wait for this phase until the Wrecking Crew has performed their voodoo.....

Posted on: October 15, 2010, 08:35:30 PM
One thing for sure. That area is still a bit of wilderness and not easily traversed. Probably need some local deer hunters for assistance to do any "look-seeing". GPS would be hard to use also. Of course we will have to wait for this phase until the Wrecking Crew has performed their voodoo.....

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« Last Edit: October 15, 2010, 06:38:20 pm by Mudflap »
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