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Offline Mudflap
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« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2010, 08:46:40 pm »
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Just finished the book "Shadow of the Sentinel: One Man's Quest to Find the Hidden Treasure of the Confederacy" by Warren Getler and Bob Brewer.
Not too sure how to take it. Seemed like it took a lot of pages to make a few statements about the KGC and relationships with the KKK, masonic groups, and ... he infers that the stashes are still under guard.... hummmmmm Undecided

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Offline AngeloRayTopic starter
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« Reply #11 on: June 07, 2010, 10:01:01 pm »
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Well to be really honest with all of y'all I've been told by my good friend W.C. Jameson, who is one of most recognizable lost treasure authors, that the Brewer book should not be taken seriously. I forget the actual reasons he stated, but it had to deal with the fact that it was published twice, under two titles, and that the first editor was really not happy with the book in full. Same goes with Dr. Roush's books on the KGC, one has to be extremely careful in dealing with his books because though portions of it may be true, he does not use any citations or end notes in his workings. Also he really is not a Ph.D in Military History but in Journalism and if one is a trained historian, they would know that in writing historical texts the usage of footnotes and citations is a must. That is why for the majority of my research I have been using actual historical texts and just using Roush for the how to find the treasure signs portions of the essay as for the Brewer book I am not using any portion of it.

To give an update on the project, I am about to begin writing my essay for it.


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Offline foolsgold
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« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 07:46:56 am »
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im a  little confused...99% of the people i have talked to about the KGC, and its dealings will direct you to Brewer's 'shadow of the sentinel', or current title, 'rebel gold' as a very solid starting point, and possibly one of the best resources

not trying to argue, just want a better understanding, I have a lot of respect for WC Jameson, enjoy his books, and music as well, so i wouldnt take his input lightly...he is what i would call 'well seasoned' in this field, would be quite jealous if you can draw from his well of knowledge!

i cant speak much to 'dr.' roush, and his work, as im not as familiar

thanks

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Offline AngeloRayTopic starter
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« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 12:43:58 pm »
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Brewer's book and Roush's books are the most widely known texts of the KGC for Treasure Hunters. But in reality almost every book that has to deal with Texas in the months before the Civil War has the Knights of the Golden Circle mentioned in the index. Matter of fact, for my research project, I first just looked for some books on antebellum Texas that we have at the library here at Angelo State, and I've found some really good findings but only a couple have mentioned the Knights after the Civil War. WC and I are good friends, matter of fact he's helping me in getting my Enchanted Rock essay published, he's not saying that Brewer and Roush are completely false, but one just has to take them with a fine comb, especially since I'm doing this current project as an historical research project that one day I might get published in an historical quarterly. One must understand as well that their books are aimed at the treasure hunting readers, not the historical readers, because like I said about Roush's books there's no way that scholarly historians would consider his books as truly history because he does not cite his sources. I must also admit that I have never read "Rebel Gold" in full, only the first couple of chapters, but WC who is both a treasure hunter and a degreed writer has mentioned to me several times that Brewer's book went through a lot of publishing troubles, and that the editor of the first version "Shadow of the Sentinel" had a lot of issues with Brewer that could not be settled. If I remember correctly, I think it had to deal with the research involved for the book because Brewer was wanting to publish it as a treasure hunting book, and the editor was wanting to publish it as an historical book. Again though I'm not saying that the book is completely unreliable but that for historical purposes, due to the controversy surrounding it, I would be better off not citing it.
With the above being said, I think it would be a good time to restate my purpose for this project. Basically what I'm doing with this project is trying to find historical evidence that would support that it could have been the KGC at the site we have found on our hunting lease, and not Pancho Villa as the legend proclaims. By using the evidence I gather on the KGC before and after the Civil War, and also by using the facts that Roush presents on his own searches and findings of KGC areas, it will hopefully convince both historians and treasure hunters that Llano County was the site of a KGC castle. A lot of y'all might be wondering why is it that I'm using Roush's books when I just basically said not to use them. Dr. Roush, who I would like to add was a consultant on the KGC for the production of Disney's National Treasure 2, has been hunting KGC areas since the 1960s. He has found several sites where caches might have once been located and details in his books of what to look for when hunting KGC areas. For this reason he is probably the only treasure hunter who has had first hand experience at actually recovering treasure signs, possible treasure sites, and educating people on his findings. But I cannot, as a professional historian, use his historical evidence to support my thesis because his books are not cited. Same goes for Brewer, with his book surrounded in controversy over what parts of it are authentic and what parts of it may have been made up, I cannot use his book for citation. So I hope that clears the air a little bit, and for those of y'all who would like to order Roush's books they can be found at:

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« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2010, 04:49:17 pm »
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makes better sense now, guess i overlooked the citing deal...

sounds like a good deal you have going there, will be looking forward to hearing more about it

thanks

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« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2010, 07:34:23 pm »
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A-Ha.... I think you hit the nail on the head Texas. The book seemed to be pulling 2 different directions. The historical end which I found very interesting and the other was Brewer's quest to solve the "KGC cache system". Got a bit tired reading how he spent a gazillion hours studying the maps. The constant references to this line and that line and how turning it x degrees to the turtle's butt seemed to get very redundant and never went anywhere.
Still a decent read IMHO.

Jim

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« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2010, 07:40:19 pm »
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i am torn too

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Offline AngeloRayTopic starter
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2010, 12:48:58 pm »
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Just found something very interesting today that I thought I might share with y'all. For those of y'all who have heard rumors that the KGC actually may have gotten some of the money that they hid from hold-ups, here's some proof for that theory. This was found in the December 8, 1921 edition of the Dallas Morning News. (Take notice of the date the edition was published).

"Knights of the Golden Circle" Rules Found on Alleged Robbers"
By the Associated Press,
  Chicago, Ill., Dec 7.- Secrets of the 'Knights of the Golden Circle' or 'Big Four, Inc.,' were discovered today when three 'Knights' were arrested and books of rules and a charter were found upon them. The men were charged with an attempted holdup.
  Some of the pledges contained in the books of rules were:
  'We will never fail to help a brother in distress.'
  'All money taken shall be divided equally and each shall receive an equal share, regardless of what part he performs.'
  The rules included:
   'No member permitted to work alone.'
   'No drinking while working or pulling a stick-up.'
   'Be careful with your tongue in public.'
   The charter showed branches of the union are maintained in Chicago, New York and Toronto, Ont."

This was defiantly a great find for KGC researchers, both historical and treasure hunting, this article proves two things (1) The KGC was in operation after the Civil War (2) The organization did indeed use robbers to gain money. I have also found so far, from the Dallas Morning News, another article that talks about the KGC in the years directly following the end of the Civil War. It was told to the reporter by an old time Texan living in Dallas in 1921. In the article the old timer tells of when he belonged to a masked fraternity that was known as "The Grand Order of the Knights of the Golden Circle". The old timer had belonged to the organization in 1867.

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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2010, 01:41:24 pm »
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very interesting...definitely shows them on the map post civil war.

only thing that gets me, is how it says the loot would be divided equally, regardless of what each person performs...

bear with me, just thinking it out in my head, and on here...

leaves me to believe that the robberies would benefit the individuals, not the whole....then i guess you could say things changed between then and the time of the war, and no more stockpiling was going on? then why would they leave what was already stowed away?

maybe it was a split, between the individuals involved, and the organization also?

i would think if a rule book, or code book was found that had info that they were stashing it in stockpiles, it would be all over the news, every reporters dream, right?  or could they have been scared? twisted what was in the books to take the heat off the kgc so much, and more on the guys caught so as to not become a target?


again, just thinking....out loud?(is that what its called when your typing it??)

i wonder what ever happened to the book of rules, charter?  are there any of these around already? would it be public info now?

do you have a postable copy of the article? that would be nice to see

thanks, and congrats on the findings!


still thinking here...

does the paper name the individuals involved?  that would be greatness!  would be time to start poking around the genealogy sites and finding family, poking and prodding! sure they would love that!

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Offline AngeloRayTopic starter
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« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2010, 06:31:01 pm »
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I'm not sure of what to make of that either, but again though, this article was printed in 1921, and if previous research is correct, then it would make sense to say that at the time this article was printed, the KGC was on their last leg. It is generally believed that the KGC died off by the 1930s, so these robbers may have been the last of a dying breed so to say. The article didn't list the names of the men captured, and it could be very possible that these guys were apart of a copy cat gang that held the same name of the Knights of the Golden Circle. Still a lot of mysteries needing to be explained, but this article is certainally interesting in the fact that it ties into the legends of outlaws being hired by the KGC to do the gang's dirty work.
Just to give an update. I've been finding all kinds of cool stuff about the KGC. I have now primary documentation on their workings in Texas which includes letters written by the head leader of the organization to newspaper editors across the state, a book written by an uncover Federal agent who infiltrated the organization during the Civil War, and some primary documentation about the organization after the Civil War. As matter of fact I'm most likely going to expand on my thesis and cover the entire history of the KGC that I can find documentation on. Will certainly be a great read for treasure hunters and historians alike after I'm finished with everything.

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