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Offline BitburgAggie_7377
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« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2013, 10:03:21 pm »
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Quote:Posted by Idaho Jones
Just because the states say something doesn't mean the fed will listen. They are notorious for ignoring what they don't like. What I like is they say how they are doing the HS thing for everyones good, yet I don't remember a time when things were this bad.


That's because you're not quite as old as GD, Seldom, and myself, so you don't remember the War of Northern Aggression.   People keep trying to say that "The War Between The States" proved that states didn't have the right to void the contract/compact they had made with other states in order to form the United States of America .  It didn't prove any such thing--at least not from a legal perspective.  All it proved was that the South had neither the manpower nor the resources to successfully defend itself in a protracted war against the North.  And that except for the one excursion into Pennsylvannia (and the fighting in New Mexico/Arizona) it was more interested in defending itself than it was in defeating the North by invading Northern territory and disrupting their command structure.

BA

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« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2013, 10:50:58 pm »
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LOL!   Lincoln was the one that Devoided the Constitution the Most .    The States have every Right to Leave the Union if they want.    TeXes is more then thinking about now.

People say "Well Who Will Protect Us.    The US Military will not be there any more."

Without the US Government, there may not be a Need for the Dang Military as it is.

In Ten Years they could have a Standing Army, Equipped every bit as good as the US Has today. 

Half the Funds being Funneled to the US Gov would take care of that.

TeXes is larger then Most European Countries.   







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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2013, 03:28:46 pm »
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Dang BA I knew you guys were old just not THAT old  Grin but you are right I wasn't looking back so far.

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« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2013, 10:49:14 am »
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I'm going with the states to not have the right to leave the union - proof being - they are still there.  However, the south were not "under-manned" as much as they were out of shape for a war - all manual labor was done by slaves - leaving the southern gentleman - fat and happy. (until Lincoln ended the war, that is) Lincoln KNEW they would be at a distinct disadvantage without their slave labor.

the 1869 Supreme Court Decision (Texas, of course) made it clear:

 Texas v. White in 1869, Supreme Court Chief Justice Salmon P. Chase wrote that, “The union between Texas and the other states was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original states. There was no place for reconsideration or revocation, except through revolution or through consent of the States.” The majority opinion struck down the Texas Ordinance of Secession, calling it “null,” and crafted a decision that rendered all acts of secession illegal according to the “perpetual union” of both the Articles of Confederation and subsequent Constitution for the United States.

There is an out - a slight one - all states must agree to let a state go, THEN, they could go bye-bye.  It's a simple contract case.

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« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2013, 11:22:43 am »
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Even with that ruling, I don't read it as ALL other states would have to consent.  At most it would need to be the same number as needed to ratify an amendment to the Constitution (i.e. 2/3rds)

Also the idea that the South was not undermanned so much as it was out of shape with all manual labor being done by slaves is a serious misreading of history.   First only a small portion of the free population of any color (and yes there were black slaveholders) owned any slaves at all, let alone enough that the owners could avoid physical labor.  Secondly, the population of the South (discounting slaves) was significantly less than that of the North.  Thirdly, the South did not have anywhere near as extensive of an industrial base as did the North.  Most "consumer" goods in the South were either home-spun or purchased from either the North or Europe.  Therefore the South did not have the infrastructure in place to efficiently replace and distribute weapons, ammunition, and other materiel.   Nor was the transportation/communications systems in the South as well developed as those in the North in part due to a greater reliance on river transportation and a greater lack of rail standardization.  Finally, as pointed out in my previous post, with the exception of the foray into Pennsylvania and the battles in Maryland (which was and is historically and culturally Southern), the war was fought on Southern soil which meant Southern resources and infrastructure were being destroyed at a far greater rate than were Northern resources and infrastructure.    If the South had waged a different type of war during the first couple of years of the war when there was a rough parity in both number of combatants and equipment and focused all of its effort on isolating and eliminating the Union capital rather than defending Southern territory, the outcome of the war might have been very different.

BA

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« Last Edit: April 03, 2013, 11:40:35 am by BitburgAggie_7377 »
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2013, 11:11:31 pm »
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In the writings of the Supreme Court, they did specify: “When, therefore, Texas became one of the United States, she entered into an indissoluble relation. All the obligations of perpetual union, and all the guaranties of republican government in the Union, attached at once to the State. The act which consummated her admission into the Union was something more than a compact; it was the incorporation of a new member into the political body. And it was final.”

In addition: " But the court left open the possibility of secession by revolution “or through consent of the States.” Leaving aside the fact that a successful revolution would see Texas leave the United States, the court does leave it open for secession provided it was done with the consent of all the states and presumably the consent of the federal government. "

Technically, the Civil War WAS about slavery. (regardless of what we now learn in school). The Southerners wanted to have people who would work for free, so that they could have the money to expand their land holdings and have the money to pay the taxes on what they were buying. Slaves worked almost everywhere - even in the Army.

The main "crops" for the south was cotton and tobacco. They even tried slaves in factories so that whites could go fight.

Of course, we all know Lincoln did not free the slaves - he freed the southern slaves, so that they didn't have re-inforcements, and so that plantations went to the dogs, and then there was nothing to sell.

Also, "Southern Gentlemen" stuck to their parties, booze and "games" of chance, races, and hob-knobbing - a very proud tradition in their eyes.
It is obvious that they were not always the best soldiers (though, they sure gave it he!!).

Now, I cannot remember why we started down this road of conversation!  Grin

Mrs.O

Posted on: April 11, 2013, 11:08:36 PM
By the way, not to be picky - to amend the constitution - 2/3rds of Congress, then, 3/4th of the states.


Mrs.O

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