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Offline hardluckTopic starter
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« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2012, 10:46:04 pm »
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Hello Idaho Jones.

Newspaper stories about the loss came out many years after the event in the USA, Australia NewZealand and Singapore. Between 1898 and 1902. At first I thought it might of been a fabricated story to discredit Kitchener because of his involvement in the scorched earth policy during the Borer War where women and children were taken into concentration camps. Sadly a British invented insitution later perfected by the Nazis. However the Second Borer War was between 1899 and 1902. The first 1898 newspaper article predates the Borer War?

So we can at least say the story was not fabricated by critics of Kitcheners Borer war scorched earth Policy?

Hardluck

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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2012, 07:21:49 pm »
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I agree it seems a little late for the story to be propaganda. It was spread around many papers apparently, and every copy reads the same. Isn't it strange that no histories seem to mention it? Perhaps not since it really has no bearing on events I suppose.

I found a clearer copy of the one you posted earlier, at least I hope it is.

If the first storys were run in 1898 then the incident indeed must have happened in 1885 as the article states 13 years have gone by since the dumping.

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Offline hardluckTopic starter
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« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2012, 04:22:43 am »
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Hello Idaho Jones

A few questions spring to mind. Why did it take 13 years for news of the mishap to be revealed?

Perhaps there was elements in government becoming concerned about Kitchener's growing influence?

He has had a cloud of alleged allegations hanging over him over the years from being a ruthless general prepared to do the unthinkable to achieve his goals. A control freak never trusting his officers judgement other than his own. A jaded sexual predator and a man with much power to cover up things.Some say he was mad, bad and dangerous to know?

Conspiracy theorists claim he was assassinated when the ship he was on was torpedoed and sank to get him out of the way in 1916?

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« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2012, 07:16:51 pm »
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Very valid point Hardluck, why did it take so long to come out? I get the feeling this was one of those war stories one of the crew was telling in a pub 13 years after and some newshound overheard and decided it would be a good fill story. Or someone just made it up for whatever reason...

The man definitely made some enemies on his way up as people in power always seem to do.

Since I couldn't find much about the incident researching early Kichener history, I decided to dig into the boat. Perhaps there is a log notation or another version?

The first thing I noticed was a discrepancy in the bow art and superstructure of the two ships pictured as the Melik. That seemed fishy and I am not at all sure it's really the Melik at the Blue Nile Club. Or it is and the historic picture is another boat?

The documentation I found on the Melik says that it wasn't floated till 1896 so clearly this wasn't the alleged gold dumper anyway.

Melik, Sheik, and Sultan were single screw driven, Zafir, Fatah, and Nazir were sternwheelers. All were built in 1896. So these boats were all about a decade to late to be our gunboat apparently.

I find it funny that there is more data floating about on pirate crews from the 1600s than Nile gunboats from the 1800s it seems. Cheesy

Four boats were built in 1884. The Tamai, Hafir, Metemmeh, and Abu Klea. They were Sternwheelers.

I also found reference to the Ibis, el Teb, Bordein, and Talahawiya. The Bordein and Talahawiya supposedly were part of the Gordon relief mission.

So which boat was our culprit?

Still poking about but I thought I would toss this out for now in case anyone's looking.


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« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 07:18:22 pm by Idaho Jones »
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« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2012, 01:40:03 am »
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Hello Idaho Jones

hmm.... some interesting things you have found in regards to the boats. And you make some very good points. I agree there seems to be a discrepancy with dates surrounding these vessels and you make a good point on the identifycation of the vessel. One account claimed that there was 3 specially built gunboats. and the old paddlewheelers were used as transports. Perhaps the ammo was on another vessel paddlewheeler and Kitchener was on another gunboat? As we have assumed the gold was on his vessel? He was the commanding officer and when the gold was lost he would of got the blame for that loss?

But if there was a conspiracy to steal the gold surely the officer in charge of the gold would of been court marshelled?

Another thing why did it take about 13 years before the story leaked out?

Hardluck


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« Reply #25 on: March 09, 2012, 01:34:26 pm »
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That thirteen year silence is indeed puzzling. Perhaps at the time some of the men were sworn to secrecy and the story only came out after enough time that whoever felt they were safe from repercussion? Did it really happen or was it just a way for someone to spice up a menial task from their military service? Possible scenarios are many to be sure.... but I think knowing who leaked the story might give us the best answer of real or myth.

Not only was Kichener not courtmarshalled but he flew through the ranks from Captain to acting Lt Colonel in 5 years and kept rising. Granted it was wartime and in a different era, but that's not the record of a man with a major screw up unless he had some very influential freinds.

1883–1884: Captain Horatio Herbert Kitchener
1884–1885: Captain (Bvt. Major) Horatio Herbert Kitchener
1885–1886: Captain (Bvt. Lieutenant-Colonel) Horatio Herbert Kitchener
1886–1888: Captain (Bvt. Lieutenant-Colonel) Horatio Herbert Kitchener, CMG

I'd guess he may have given the command to discard the ammo but I bet he wasn't even aware of what happened until well after the fact if it ever even happened at all. Gee thanks Herb, that gold was just taking up space. Why don't you pin on a silver cluster for cleaning it up... I think not Cheesy

Question is did anyone else take a fall for it? 
 Undecided

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« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2012, 09:33:49 pm »
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hello Idaho Jones.

Sorry I cannot fully those questions just yet. But I suspect there might be an answer in Churchills book about kitchener or in the British archives.

Hardluck

Posted on: March 10, 2012, 04:13:55 AM
Hello Idaho Jones

I just saw a documentary about the British Empire and there was a bit about Kitchener's campaign in the Sudan? Some interesting points made? There is a discrepancy between the dates referred to in the newspaper to what was shown in the documentary? Another interesting thing was Winston churchill was a junior officer under Kitchener.

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« Last Edit: March 16, 2012, 09:47:00 pm by hardluck »
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« Reply #27 on: March 19, 2012, 12:18:18 pm »
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I must admit that picture of young Churchill is not what I would have imagined.  Smiley What a coincedence it would be if he was involved somehow. He truly may have some info in his papers as you said.

I am also inclined to believe the dates are suspect but I haven't had time to put anything together yet. It seems like a mission of that importance should have a lot of supporting documentation, reports, logbooks, etc., just have to figure out where it is hidden away Smiley

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« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2012, 12:25:07 pm »
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Hello Idaho Jones

Perhaps we could find information at the imperial war archives?

Hardluck

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