KING JOHNS TREASURE.

Hello Fredio

Here is a link to a previous posting.

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Hardluck

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http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,20662.msg137018.html#msg137018

Hello Fredio

I cannot even find that thread myself now.

However I have a few bits and pieces you welcome to have on the topic.

There is a few different theories on the fate of the treasure. Some claim the treasure was not lost in the wash at all but the baggage train.

However the 3 main theories pertaining to the location of king johns jewels JC Holt theory and St John Hopes theory and Gordon Fowler's theory. All vary along a ten mile stretch of the river Nene.

The trouble is land reclamation over the centuries have drastically altered the landscape.The following map gives an approximate suspected location of each theory.

However to get to the bottom of this legend we really have to source the primary documents logging the last days of king johns movements.

Hardluck

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http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,20662.msg137107.html#msg137107

Hello Fredio

Thank you for the interesting post.

Its late So I will keep the post short if that is possible for me. I have never researched the story to a great depth, I have never read the Munster rolls that mentions the event. It is only a passing casual interest for me.Personally I think it was a too large of a area to search. I have other projects that are more pressing. However all treasure stories are interesting to me.

I assume you are aware of another researcher who claimed that King Johns treasure was not lost in the wash at all?

Hardluck

Hardluck

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Hello Fredio

I would not dwell too much on the comments of Allan. However some historians do believe that Venerable Beda did not travel very far from the place where he lived. The place where he lived was at the cross roads of a major trading routes in its day. He would of had been in contact with travelers and traders from all over the place. Most historians generally believe his work to fairly accurate regardless of if he traveled or not.

And yes there is more to the story. King John has been condemned by some historians as an inept weak ruler. To be fair he inherited a kingdom neglected by Richard Lion heart allowing control to an self serving body of clerics and barons. King John had to wrangle power back off them and of course they were not wanting to release power. And the Papacy just about openly encouraged King Johns removal.

Allan I notice in another Forum claimed that there was a Papal conspiracy to assassinate King John? Strange enough a well known Vatican apologist was on his case like a bee to honey. Was there any truth to his claim it is hard to tell as he is a very emotion type of person and becomes very offended if challenged on his conclusions.

The person I alluded to was not Allan, but an researcher who searched for the treasure in 1937. He was the Rev O R Plant who allegedly found ancient documents. He claimed that Rockingham Castle was once King Johns hunting Lodge. While he believed that the royal Baggage train was lost on the Well stream. He claimed that the treasure was hidden in secret chambers under the castle before the loss of the baggage train.

Did he make some interesting discoveries or was he an eccentric? There was no follow up newspaper story about his search so we can assume he was unsuccessful in his search.

However I still would be interested to see if there the alleged documents he found can be traced?

Oh and a few more bits and pieces.

In a book called England delineated, or, A geographical description of every county ... - Page 205 by John Aikin - dated 1790

There is mention of the event.

The great arm of the sea, called the Wash, or Washes, is passable at low water ; but not without some danger from quicksands, as was fatally experienced by King John, who, in the Baron's wars, here lost all his carriages and camp

What it does not mention is any treasure or king John personnel wealth being lost?


Strange enough in another book A description of England and Wales: Containing a particular account of each Page 288 dated 1769

The Washes of this country have been much talked of and are terrible to strangers, though no dangers is to be apprehended from them, if they have the prudence to take a guide, a precaution that is highly necessary. They are situated at the mouth of the river Welland called Fossdyke wash and that of the river Ouse called Cross keys wash. Twice every 24 hours at six hours at a time during the recesses of the tide they are covered with the flux of the ocean which forms a kind of a bay.

Formerly people traveled over what was called the Long-wash, between Lynn- and Boston, entirely upon the fands or skirts of the ocean ; but this is now quite impracticable. Here king John Lost all his carriages among the creeks and quicksands.The memory which is preserved by the corner between Cross Keys and Wash and Lynn, being called Kings corner.


They mention the baggage train but no exact mention of King John personnel wealth?

Another interesting thing according to the patent and close rolls for October 1216, King John on Oct 6 Boston to Swineshead, Oct 7 Swineshead to Spalding,Oct 9 Spalding to Kings Lynn. Oct 12 Kings Lynn to Swineshead.

What we cannot account for is the days between the 9th and 12 of October?

So yes it is an interesting subject full of many questions.

                                                                                                                                         
Hardluck

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http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,20662.msg137272.html#msg137272

Hello Fredio

There are Two other sources for the story.

Roger of Wendover wrote Flores Historiarun in 1235 Tells of the loss of King Johns Baggage train in 1216.

Abbot Ralph of Coggeshall's Chronicon Anglicanum in 1218 also wrote about Kings Johns lost treasure.  It is assumed that he obtained information of the disaster from brother monks at Swinehead. Perhaps he was source of the poison plumb legend?

All of the older accounts mentions the Wellstream and make no mention of the wash.Over the centuries the wellstream completely disappeared from the maps as the topography changed.

Knowledge of area and lay of the land in understanding the history behind the story. You have an unique opportunity to research this story as it is in your back yard so to speak. Nothing beats local knowledge. In regards to your comments

I believe I know the location of the loss , within ten square metres.

I am assume that is based on an archeological dig that discovered a crossing point in the medieval layers some time ago?

There is no doubt that treasure was missing by simply reviewing the Patent rolls. There was dozens of gold goblets, Flagons, Basins, candelabra, Pendants, Jewel encrusted belts, Coronation regalia and the regalia King Johns grandmother worn as the empress. The great Crown. A golden wand with a dove, the sword of Tristram and the imperial regalia of  empress Matilda. None of these items were in the inventory of regalia when Henry III was crowned in 1220.

What becomes of this treasure is a mystery indeed.

Hardluck


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