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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2010, 04:17:41 pm »
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Since you live so close, it might be interesting to see if there are any journals from Ft Concho which mention Bill Murdock or his party. If he really did exist and spent time at the fort it would give some basis toward the wagon massacre story.

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Offline jbailey
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« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2010, 05:48:04 pm »
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On it. I have a friend that works there. Also, anyone traveling from Ft Concho to San Antonio would have most likely stopped at Ft Mctavish before heading on (SA is a Three hour drive from here around 190 miles). The Tonkawan (Tonkowan) and Apache were both present at the time in this area (Tonkowan were more hill country, Apache more western plains). Wonder what happened to the loot the doomed party went off with?

Get back with more,
~j Detecting
Correction - McTavish is actually Ft McKavett. ;-)

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Offline hardluck
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« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2010, 06:24:11 pm »
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Hello jbaily

 Welcome

There is nothing better to have some one on the ground so to speak. The best thing you can do If you want to research this story further is get in contact with any local historical society. The  Maximilian castle gap story is based on three central characters.

Black, O'Connor and Murdock

Without some verification of them we have no proof that these events ever took place at all. The local jail operated from 1848 so it is possible that Murdock was a prisoner there and is recorded in the 1867 inmate files of the Jail? Possibly you may be able to get access via historical societies.

Black I recall was a doctor? Perhaps there is a mention of him in local newspapers. He could of been a traveling doctor as they were common at the time. It is interesting to note that doctors did not have to professionally trained until after 1900.

Research is the key in discovering the truth behind such legends.

Hardluck.

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Offline jbailey
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« Reply #53 on: July 11, 2010, 01:38:12 am »
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Hardluck,

I have many connections here in the area as well as my Uncle whom has the Texas Ranger's at his disposal. I'm checking out Ft Concho on Monday morning and going to see whom we can corner here. Also, Ft McKavett has a detailed ledger. I have checked that out on my own. Let you guys know what I find.

~j
Also, Ft Concho was founded in 1867. the same year.
Something else, i wonder how many "outlaws" used their real names when signing a ledger. I read something earlier that said there was no Bill Murdock buried in denton. If you were guilty of a crime, why not an alias? If we can connect the same name from Ft Concho to Denton then we know we have our guy. No?

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Offline hardluck
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« Reply #54 on: July 11, 2010, 02:55:11 am »
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Hello jbaily

The Castle gap Treasure is based on these 3 characters. To Understand the truth behind the legend we have verify that these people existed. It is not easy and no guarantee of results. This bill Murdock possible alternate spelling Murdoch is the key as the story is centered around him.

What we need is something independent to confirm the story other than hearsay. If Bill Murdock was a renegade Confederate soldier. It could of been possible he was connected to general Joseph general Shelby who was known to have traveled to Mexico to offer his services only to return to the US. Bill Murdock could of been one of the soldiers that went with him.

General Shelby had come from Missouri so Bill Murdock could be recorded in the Muster lists of Confederate soldiers from Missouri?

If Bill Murdock was an alias then why would he give a false name when dying to the men he retold the story of the treasure to?

It is possible to have another name connected to both places as a alias but that does not prove that the name or alias is connected to the story.

One of the dangers of this research is changing too much of the story to prove the existence of such a story. Sadly I have seen that too many times and seen many people spend all their lives chasing legends.

However there are a few stones that have not been looked under just yet. See if you can find prison records or Confederate muster lists for Missouri under General Shelby.

Hardluck  Wink

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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #55 on: July 12, 2010, 08:33:41 am »
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Hello all Smiley I had to go back and refresh my memory of the Murdock saga.

As the story goes...
Murdock his party arrived at Ft Concho after the killing and treasure hiding, but since there were no witnesses left no one knew what the men had done. Still it is possible they may have changed names, but they were ex confederates and in a sympathetic state. The rest of the party left Murdock behind because of sickness, there is no mention of incarceration at Concho. Likely if any mention of them is at Concho it will be just a footnote, but still if they were there it adds a tiny bit of credence to the story.

Black and O'Connor come into the story in Denton, Texas later after Murdock has travelled to Mississippi to try and get help from the James gang. Perhaps Denton was as far as he got since it is east of Concho?

anyway good luck and thanks for the groundwork Smiley

 

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« Reply #56 on: July 12, 2010, 02:16:46 pm »
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Thanks Idaho,

Have an appointment with the Records clerk at 2 on tuesday. Hopefully I can dig up something on the hospital stay or anyone passing through. Also, Denton is 261 miles north east of us. I just keep getting baffled at the fact that these guys did this on horseback.

Anyone have some advise on some details I should be looking for? (besides the obvious ledger entries.)

wish me luck,
~j Great

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« Reply #57 on: July 12, 2010, 04:20:13 pm »
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any notations on the first names of Dr. Black or mr O'connor??

i did find a power of attorney in Denton county for a man named Black in the year 1854...nothing for any O' conner, or O'connor...tried a few variations..

im a little less than 261 miles from denton, about 15 actually!  let me know if you need some help...cant seem to locate one of my "important" notebooks at the time, with several notes in it

seem to have some sam bass stuff jumping into my head making it real easy for me to keep all this straight!!
will locate my notes soon, and see if i have any pertinent info on this one in it, will be sure and post...i know i have info on this in there

thanks

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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #58 on: July 12, 2010, 04:39:25 pm »
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Hope you find out something interesting Jbailey  Smiley

The timeframe would likely be between 1865 when trouble started and 1867 when Max was executed.

I would look for any references to confederate groups moving through the fort. Perhaps there was a check in procedure. Supplies or horses purchased with mexican gold coins, gambling with gold coin, direction of travel, notations of patrols sent to massacre sites, names in any groups which were massacred. Anything out of the ordinary. I'm sure there are some things I'm forgetting.

If none of the names can be validated it's likely the treasure never was in the Castle Gap area.

Nice going FoolsGold, with 2 people in close proximity to prime areas of the story we might be able to say if this lead is good or not.

Perhaps just searching for Doctors and Lawyers practicing in Denton circa 1860-1870 might turn up a name variation. Perhaps there are jail records or newspapers from the area in the local library or public records offices? Also one might look into where the inmates who died in captivity were buried. Perhaps there is a Murdock variation there.

Good luck on your searches  Smiley

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« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2010, 02:29:56 pm »
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found some interesting info on denton county, which may make for some tougher searching...

the county seat was moved to the city of denton in 1857, and a fire destroyed that same court house in 1875, in which most of the county records were lost. 
nice!  i would imagine that finding these two men(black and o connor) still should be do-able, but probably more from a genealogy standpoint, and more difficult through a county record search...i was wondering why there was such a lack in the years of info i found the other day!!

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