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Offline starboss
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2011, 07:20:54 pm »
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This is fascinating stuff, gentlemen, thank you for posting in online.

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Offline BitburgAggie_7377
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2011, 07:57:45 pm »
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Quote:Posted by starboss
This is fascinating stuff, gentlemen, thank you for posting in online.


You ain't seen nothing yet.....you ought to see the results when this bunch really sinks their collective teeth into a topic. 

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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2011, 08:34:30 pm »
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Bowie became a Mexican citizen on September 30, 1830, after promising to establish textile mills in the province of Coahuila y Tejas. To fulfill his promise, Bowie entered into partnership with Veramendi to build cotton and wool mills in Saltillo.
This report says that Bowie and Veramendi were friends and partners, while other reports say they did not meet till 1831 thru Ursula. Its going to take some digging to get to the facts.


Some time legends are too strong to die as they become for ever entwined into the history of a place. Especially when their connected to such a legendary figure such as Jim Bowie?

Ain't that the truth I made a statement once that if Bowie had not died at the Alamo we would not even remember his name we build legends on legendary figures.

And I agree that the mine has been found and worked out years ago but there are several leads about hidden silver coming from the San Saba  that are worth looking into.

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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2011, 11:45:28 am »
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One would wonder if the Bowie Knife would be as popular as it is without the famous Alamo battle?

Some bits and pieces to start the discussion...

Bowie and Ursula married documentation

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Wouldn't you know the man your daughter was marrying?

He was elected vice governor of Coahuila and Texas on September 6, 1830, and was confirmed by the legislature on January 4, 1831. Upon assuming his duties as vice governor, he moved with his family from Bexar to Saltillo. In April 1831, his daughter, Dona Ursula Mar?a de Veramendi, married James Bowie. Bowie and Veramendi formed a partnership to establish cotton mills in Saltillo, and Veramendi began to divide his time between Texas and Coahuila.

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When Bowie first entered Mexican Texas is unknown. He possibly was recruited in 1819 in New Orleans with Benjamin R. Milam and others for the Long expedition. If he did, he was not among those captured. On January 1, 1830, Bowie and a friend left Thibodaux for Texas. They stopped at Nacogdoches, at Jared E. Groce's farm on the Brazos River, and in San Felipe, where Bowie presented a letter of introduction to empresario Stephen F. Austin from Thomas F. McKinney, one of the Old Three Hundred colonists. On February 20 Bowie and his friend Isaac Donoho took the oath of allegiance to Mexico. Bowie, age thirty-four, was at his prime. He was well traveled, convivial, loved music, and was generous. He also was ambitious and scheming; he played cards for money, and lived in a world of debt. He reached San Antonio with William H. Wharton and Mrs. Wharton, Isaac Donoho, Caiaphas K. Ham, and several slaves. They carried letters of introduction to two wealthy and influential Mexicans, Juan Mart?n de Veramendi and Juan N. Segu?n.qBowie's party continued on to Saltillo, the state capital of Coahuila and Texas. There Bowie learned that a Mexican law of 1828 offered its citizens eleven-league grants in Texas for $100 to $250 each. (A league was 4,428.4 acres.) Bowie urged Mexicans to apply for the eleven-league grants, which he purchased from them. He left Saltillo with fifteen or sixteen of these grants, and continued to encourage speculation in Texas lands. His activities irritated Stephen F. Austin, who hesitated to approve lands Bowie wanted to locate in the Austin colony but eventually allowed the tracts there.

In San Antonio Bowie posed as a man of wealth, attached himself to the wealthy Veramendi family, and was baptized into the Catholic Church, sponsored by the Veramendis. In the autumn of 1830 he accompanied the family to Saltillo, and on October 5 officially became a Mexican citizen. The citizenship was contingent on his establishing wool and cotton mills in Coahuila. Through his friend Angus McNeill of Natchez, he purchased a textile mill for $20,000. On April 25, 1831, in San Antonio, Bowie married Ursula de Veramendi. He had appeared before the mayor, declared his age as thirty-two (he was actually thirty-five), and pledged to pay Ursula a dowry of $15,000. He valued his properties at $222,800. But the titles to his 60,000 arpents of Arkansas land, valued at $30,000, were fraudulent. Walker and Wilkins of Natchez owed Bowie $45,000 for his interest in Arcadia Plantation, and had given McNeil $20,000 for the Saltillo mill. Bowie borrowed $1,879 from his father-in-law and $750 from Ursula's grandmother for a honeymoon trip to New Orleans and Natchez. The Bowies settled in San Antonio.

Veramendi family tradition says Bowie spent little time at home. He apparently became fascinated by tales of the "lost" Los Almagres Mine, said to be west of San Antonio near the ruin of Santa Cruz de San Sab? Mission. Bowie obtained permission from Mexican authorities for an expedition into Indian country financed by the Veramendis, and on November 2, 1831, he left San Antonio with his brother Rezin and nine others. On the nineteenth they learned that a large Indian war party was following them, and six miles from San Saba, Bowie camped in an oak grove. An attempt to parley failed. Bowie's men fought for their lives for thirteen hours. The Indians finally drew off, reportedly leaving forty dead and thirty wounded. Bowie lost one man killed and several wounded. The party returned to San Antonio. On January 23, 1832, Bowie made another foray to the west. He now carried the title of "colonel" of citizen rangers. He left Gonzales with twenty-six men to scout the headwaters of the Colorado for Tawakonis and other hostile Indians. After a fruitless search of 2? months, he returned home.

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I can't imagine a wealthy socialite getting married without the groom meeting the family first, so I'm inclined to accept the above account at this point.

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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2011, 12:18:18 pm »
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Well, at least we know

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   are reliable  Grin

Most of the biographies of the Bowie brothers have them doing a lot of "illegal" (or at least highly questionable) horse and slave trading between Texas and Louisiana before Jim decided to settle in Texas.....the rumors include selling merchandise to one purchaser, stealing it back and then selling it to another purchaser in another location.


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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2011, 01:03:03 pm »
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Yes it appears so BA, everything the brothers were involved in seems to have been somewhat shady. Men of opportunity   Grin

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Offline hardluckTopic starter
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2011, 05:55:24 pm »
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Hello All

Thanks once again for the interesting posts.

Here is another series of stories allegedly connected to the San Saba Silver mine Legend.

There is a story about a Mexican woman by the name of Carlota in 1858 that found an Derrotero in Monclova Mexico. She formed a partnership with a man in Texas called Dixon. She sent him the following copy on a map giving directions to the main mine. The orginal documents in Monclova was later stolen. She allegedly claimed that the San Saba Mine had 2000 Silver Bars hidden there allegedly collected from 14 mines. The Derrotero she sent led to a creek called silver creek. You can see Carlota's alleged copy below.

Was there any truth in this story or was it all just part of an elaborate Spanish swindle?

Strange enough there was a Mexican called Aurelio Gondora who claimed in 1896 that his father had giving him some old derroteros and showed a man called Merchant who believed the maps shown him looked genuine. Perhaps genuine enough for some? Aurelio Gondora apparently had shown one person too many and was murdered and the documents he had were stolen.

The documents he had claimed that in 1766 after the Presidio was abandoned. The miners struggled on till 1769 but was frequently cut off by Indian attack. It was in one of these Indian raids the Spanish  lost their horses. In desperation they  stored all their processed silver in the main mine near the old presidio before fleeing the region.

Is there any truth to these stories? Or is it the Yama syndrome kicking in, I do not know?

I am sure these documents can be found if they exist, Interesting all the same

Hardluck

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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2011, 06:55:07 pm »
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The problem I have with Carlota maps is the mine was not referred to as the San Saba mine till the 1900's.
Before then it was called the Cerro del Almagres  even by gringos.
There is another legend of a map that was taken off Bowie's body at the Alamo that seems to figure in to several hunts.
Then there are the copper plates that I think were a scam to try to get inverters. Will refresh my memory and add more about them later. 

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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2011, 04:57:20 pm »
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Hello Seldom

You make a good point. I suspect the whole Caroleta story was a fabrication.There was a trend from the early 1850's for con artists to scam investors out of money but what was termed back then " Spanish Swindle" Like the "Nigerian scams" today it involved a lot of wealth instructions or knowledge on how to find it but needed money one reason or another to recover it.

In a cashed up gold rush era with wide eyed investors seeking quick wealth became easy targets for sharp tongued con artist. The San Saba Mine Story with its connection to James Bowie was perhaps well known enough for con artists to make money from it. The Mary Welsh version of Cocos treasure legend was another example of a treasure legend inflicted by it by opportunists.

It is one of the weeds we have to prune out of the treasure legends.

Hardluck 

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« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2011, 05:33:52 pm »
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This was an interesting article about a possible historic location in the suspect area. It also brings to light the problem of later work covering evidence of earlier activity.

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http://www.texasbeyondhistory.net/plateaus/images/he13.html


In the 1970s, an area rancher discovered a group of mines on his property along the southern slopes of Packsaddle Mountain, just south of Honey Creek, a short distance southwest of the Llano River and near its confluence with the Colorado River. He asked Christopher Caran, a consulting geologist, to investigate the mines. In 1999, Caran organized a group of geologists and archeologists to do so. Using information from on-site examination and archival resources, two archeological sites were recorded on the property. A third site was recorded on an adjacent property further north on Packsaddle. Field investigation included metal detector surveys and examination of the surface, the interior of shafts, tunnels, open pits, and modified natural caves. Spoil piles were found at all of the excavated features.

In the largest site, one feature contains a deep shaft with a side tunnel far down inside the shaft. Another feature includes a deep shaft accessed directly from the surface and by a second entrance with a tunnel leading downward to the shaft (see plan and profile maps, above). There are side tunnels at three levels. A third feature consists of a long tunnel and a shorter side tunnel cut into the side of a hill. Pick marks and drill marks were observed near the entrance. Artifacts included cut nails, a broken pick point, and a chisel. A concentration of cut nails at another feature indicates a probable structure. Cut or wire nails were noted in various tunnel walls throughout the site.

The second site contains several excavations, including a shaft and a modified natural fissure, as well as the remains of a brick smelter. The surface of the fissure contains anchor points for a cable-hauling system to transfer ore to the smelter. The third site includes three modified natural caves with excavated side tunnels. A probable gunpowder can was found in one cave.

Perhaps Some of the maps can be explained by the following exerpt?

Stephen F. Austin, on his first trip to Texas, heard from Erasmo Segu?nqv that there was a rich silver mine on the San Saba River and a gold mine on the Llano. Hearing again in Mexico City of the unworked ore deposit called Los Almagres "in the territory of Sansava," he sent soldiers to inspect it. They probably went to the wrong place. In 1829 the mythical "lost" silver mine of San Sab? began appearing on Austin's maps. A year later, Henry S. Tanner borrowed Austin's designation for his own famous Texas map. Its wide distribution resulted in "a rash of maps showing silver mines near the old Spanish fort." Austin, doubtless realizing the value of the legend in attracting immigrants, repeated it in an 1831 promotional pamphlet. For years afterward it was mentioned in nearly every book about Texas.

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http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/dkl05




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