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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2012, 01:21:39 pm »
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My appologies for this long post but I don't get many chances to check back in so covering some ground...

Seldom I loved your story about Bill Sally and the peaches. I am a firm believer that not every item touched by ancient man had religious significance. Sorry been distracted for a few days with stuff going on and missed saying so in my last reply.

After looking through some of the mound builder artifacts (Thanks for the link BA) I can't see even a remote resemblance other than being made of stone. I still don't quite understand the why of creating so many fabricated artifacts I'm accepting that it is a hoax at this point, or at least not what it was purported to be. 

My opinion for the sake of counterpoint discussion below. I respect everyone's right to believe what they decide is right. I try very hard not to get emotionally attached to any idea as new evidence comes to light all the time.

I believe there is ample evidence to say ancient man was better travelled than historically reported. Whether by foot, boat, critter or whatever they seemed to have gotten around. Just because we can't nail down the specifics yet doesn't in my opinion excuse ignoring evidence that doesn't fit accepted theory. Theories are made to be adjusted and too many mainstreamers have issues adjusting. Some have even polluted the pool by throwing imagined controversy at objects found or falsified finds to fit thier own agendas. Simply poo pooing stuff will probably make a person look like an idiot at some future time, same as blindly accepting whatever comes along.

We are a creative species obviously and sometimes man creates simply for the love of creation in art, shelter, science, even war. We also have no problem borrowing the ideas others come up with.

I take extreme issue with the fact that most people on both sides believe only one version of history could have happened. They try to wrap everything from the moment of creation/evolution/genetic modification (depending on your favorite beliefs) right up to today under one neat package. Just like today the entire population of man only progresses in a straight line right? We picked up a twig to gather ants, then a bone or stick to whack things, then a pointy stick to poke things. Then made some pointed rocks tied to sticks. Then we found metal and things got good. We made some batteries, and a geared calculating device apparently with no machining tools (Antikythera device) stacked some really big rocks, did a little brain surgery, but apparently got bored and went back to pointy things for another millenia or so...

Modern human evolution keeps marching back in time to the point we were hanging out with some of our supposed ancestors. Some we are related to in a minor way and some not at all as far as dna suggests now. Is it evolution of body or just the mind?

Mitachondrial dna supposedly suggests we just popped up human at some point. Some random space virus blew through and contaminated a small portion (1) species of the planet. I guess the rest were hiding in a movie theater? (old zombie movie reference) Smiley Sorry but I've read Nigerian email scams that made sounded more probable. Space aliens? I don't know but I can't rule it out just as I can't rule out evolution or creation 100%. Earth is a weird place when you get down to it, and grasping at straws is not only limited to the Von Danikens of the world.

Honestly I blame his editors, you know they made him do it... Smiley

Fresh ideas and opinions are a catalyst to new discovery I think and I enjoy these discussions. I wish time permitted me more participation.

In all this time we modern humans have only explored a part of 1/3 of our planet. Saying we have a good idea of earth history is like going to kindergarten and thinking we know it all. The oceans are yeilding up more and more interesting things all the time, perhaps some of the answers are still out there? I'm hoping they are. 

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Offline BitburgAggie_7377
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« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2012, 01:58:18 pm »
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Quote:Posted by Idaho Jones
After looking through some of the mound builder artifacts (Thanks for the link BA) I can't see even a remote resemblance other than being made of stone. I still don't quite understand the why of creating so many fabricated artifacts I'm accepting that it is a hoax at this point, or at least not what it was purported to be.



That probably was not the best source I could have linked to.   I actually picked that linked based on age (one of the first scholarly discussions).  Some of the more recent discoveries as shown in searches of Adena, Hopewell and other specific moundbuilder cultures illustrate the points more clearly  (see

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http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/01/cahokia/burmeister-photography
  ) .

There are somethings that we are likely to never know.   It is also possible for people to be right for all the wrong reasons.     Thor Heyerdahl proved how people from various parts of the world COULD have had cultural exchanges, but that is not the same thing as proving that they did (or if they did that they used the methods he proposed).   


As for Seldom's statement " I only question how much influence a small group can have on a whole civilization."   On the whole I agree with his statement and have said so.   Small, relatively isolated groups rarely have a large and lasting impact on the larger host group.   On the other hand, I have to acknowledge that history is replete with documented evidence of single individual, appearing at the right place at the right time with the right message or abilities, transforming civilizations.    When you figure out the probability of anyone individual having that sort of impact, the odds against them are astronomical, but given enough individual samples, you can't help but have some that beat the odds.   Same thing could apply to groups---but the evidence either is still lacking or is not recognized or is deliberately suppressed.

BA



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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2012, 03:05:03 pm »
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It was a starting point, and a vastly different cultural collection than what is shown alledgedly from the cave. It satisfied my immediate curiousity regarding obvious similarities. If I was intrigued enough to go a searching I would perhaps delve deeper but I'm good for now Smiley

Influence would be directly relevant to contact and communication. In todays terms a small group can have a large effect because of the ability to communicate with most of the world. In the timeframe in question I would agree the influence should be very small. However Rome was a small country that expanded to influence many other peoples so perhaps as you say BA it is a purpose or vision that overcomes the odds. Technological superiority of weapons, armor, and training in defensive techniques played a part in their conquest as well as civilized ideals of cultural blending I think. Not saying this has anything in common with the alleged cave folk just kind of musing the idea. Smiley



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« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2012, 08:58:33 pm »
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The TV shows and pop books about Indians want us to believe that every group was at war with every other group when in fact the real history and legends tell a story of trade and exchange of ideal. So a treader could carry an idea from group to group so yes one man or a small group can effect dozens of folks

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