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Offline seldomTopic starter
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« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2011, 12:09:40 pm »
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One has to wonder if the 9 months Sublett served with the Rangers he might have tracked an outlaw or two who could have tried to bargain with hidden wealth? Perhaps Sublett took the job as hunter because it was in the area he knew a cache was hidden and he basically got paid to look for it?

Thats a good point. Many a robbery legend can be wrecked if you research the lawman and/or the posse members involved. There is a legend of 60 grand hide on the Red river that people are still looking for. The searchers refuse to look at the fact that after the 5 posse men killed the robbers and reported no loot recovered 3 bought nice farms within a year, one left the area never to be seen again and one became the town drunk but always had a little money. That 60 large ain't lost its gone but some folks turn a blind eye on facts when they are right in front of them.
   
3 if no one bought gold from Sublett where did the money come from?

Indian cache cash, gold, jewelery, mail little of everything. Lets think about it this way. If you/me found a drug dealers cache full of cash some gold coins Rolex watches jewelery what are we going to do. Me first I will start spreading the cash around hell no one even blinks an eye at 100 dollar bills now days you can put a 100 grand in circulation without raising any eye brows, where moving gold coins and Rolex's will get you some questions. Probably the same in Ben's day get rid of the cash and show just enough gold to make folks believe you have a mine.
He might have salted a cave with some gold then told several how to find it just to shore up his mine legend.       

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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2011, 12:38:42 pm »
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I'm wondering if the times he disappeared for a month or so if he didn't head to a different area under another name and launder some of those items?

Perhaps that is why no one could find the mine again, it was a salted area? Makes sense why no one could figure out where it was if they were looking in the wrong direction.

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« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 12:43:03 pm by Idaho Jones »
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« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2011, 02:50:28 pm »
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Quote:Posted by Idaho Jones
I think you posted a link to old railroad routes a long while back but I can't seem to find the link.



I think this is the one you remember   

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Posted on: April 07, 2011, 02:43:23 PM
Quote:Posted by Idaho Jones
One has to wonder if the 9 months Sublett served with the Rangers he might have tracked an outlaw or two who could have tried to bargain with hidden wealth? Perhaps Sublett took the job as hunter because it was in the area he knew a cache was hidden and he basically got paid to look for it?


Without specifically disparaging Sublett or accusing him of anything without much more substantial evidence, we need to keep in mind that many lawmen of the time (including at least a few Texas Rangers) worked both sides of the law-----some of them working both sides at the same time (although most were on one side or the other during different periods of their lives).

Posted on: April 07, 2011, 02:47:17 PM
Quote:Posted by seldom
He might have salted a cave with some gold then told several how to find it just to shore up his mine legend.


Devious, but great minds do think a like since at least a few of us have thought along those lines.   (I wonder if any of my relatives that lived in the same area as Sublett kept any journals?....might have to check with my dad)

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« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2011, 04:20:19 pm »
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That is indeed the link BA thanks!

You are totally correct on both counts BA. No disrespect meant towards the man, just inventing scenarios that might explain the facts. Keyword "inventing" since the details are yet lost to time. Those days were a lot more finders keepers losers weepers since recording stolen goods just wasn't done in many instances it seems. Even if you found something with a persons picture it would be lucky to be able to return it unless you ran into them or someone who knew them. If it was an Apache raid cache or a lost Spanish stash I doubt anyone of the day would even question ownership.

Keeping things hidden was a safeguard since no one was around to protect your assets. Being an ex-lawman he would have known no one was around to protect him. Not sure that doesn't still apply in most cases. I'm a firm believer that something no one else has found will stay lost if you don't reveal the location... Wink

I think the simplest most plausible scenario to me is being in the right place at the right time, and doing the right thing. Obviously he got along with the Apaches. I'd guess he did something that impressed them enough that they showed him a cache. They obviously had some reason not to harass Sublett or he was just that good and careful.

Any of the other scenarios requires a lot of forethought, faith, and investment. The trick is can we come up with any evidence to point to the truth of it?

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« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2011, 12:31:57 pm »
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Something that bothers me is Sublett's gold doesn't seem to have caused a gold rush as such a find would seem to warrent. Look at what happened with the Adams story.  Was it just too late in the game to cause the excitement? Obviously a lot of people noticed so maybe local history notes something I am missing?

When did Sublett first find gold? Some accounts say while he was working for the railroad, while the one below says 1875, 6 years before Gould's rail line. Was Sublett working for the Huntington line? By 1881 when Gould's line recieved a greenlight the Apaches were about done. Perhaps that is why Sublett had little trouble with them. But did he really find gold in 1875 and just returned with the railroad after the hostiles had been decimated?

The one mine from the time that is mentioned produced silver and copper. Could Sublett have used the Hazel mine as his mine for visitors? Or did he find the lost spanish mine mentioned by Lew Wallace and Geronimo? Or was the wealth the spanish mentioned in the Guadelupes a cache brought from another region? hmmm

The area must have been well explored for mineral deposits since many other minerals and such have been mined since.

If there were nuggets and dust there should be assay reports somewhere. That's what keeps bothering me. None of the usual lost mine parameters seem to have happened aside from the 3 others who visited but couldn't refind the mine.  That's what keeps me thinking cache. But if he only showed up with coin wouldn't the stories reflect that?  What a conundrum

I still think the dates have to be the key to part of the mystery, so if there is any interest I will work on a timeline next.

      below are some excerpts from the Texas Historical Association with some interesting points for the area.
 
<quote>
The earliest sign of human occupation in the area, found in the Guadalupes, is a 12,000-year-old Folsom point. Later, hunter-gatherers probably inhabited the mountains only during the summer; they also left artifacts, as well as pictographs. The most famous indigenous inhabitants of the mountains, the Apaches, arrived about 600 years ago. They harvested agave, yucca, and sotol when meat was unavailable, and their agave-roasting pits are still visible in the Guadalupes.

The area that was to become Culberson County was largely untouched by Spanish exploration, due to its forbidding topography. In 1583, however, Antonio de Espejo became the first European to see the Mescalero Apaches, on the prairie just east of the Guadalupe Mountains.


A prospector named Thomas Owen or Owens reportedly discovered the Hazel Mine in 1856, but the Mescaleros and the Civil War forced him to abandon the area for twenty-five years.

In May 1870 another detachment of troops left Fort Quitman under Maj. Albert Morrow. At Pine Springs in the Guadalupes,
Morrow's men rendezvoused with reinforcements from Fort Davis, pressed up McKittrick Canyon in search of the Indians, and got lost. They did manage to discover and destroy one rancher?a of seventy-five lodges, which the Apaches had abandoned.

By this time a ranching boom had begun in the Trans-Pecos, and the demand for rangeland for longhorn cattle sealed the fate of the Apaches. Thanks to Victorio's tactical brilliance, they managed to elude the military for another ten years, but the federal cavalry and the Texas Rangersqv had the advantage. Victorio himself was finally killed in Mexico in 1880, and in January 1881 a company of rangers under George W. Baylor ambushed the last surviving band of Apache raiders in Bass Canyon in the Sierra Diablo Mountains; it was the last big Indian fight in Texas.

In 1881 the long-awaited railroad link to the West finally became a reality, although not without its share of controversy. Under Jay Gould, who had bought the line a year before, the Texas and Pacific Railway was building westward from Fort Worth to El Paso. Meanwhile Collis P. Huntington's rival Galveston, Harrisburg and San Antonio Railway was building eastward from El Paso in order to complete its own link to central and eastern Texas. For a time no one was sure which road would prevail, but in November 1881 Gould and Huntington reached an agreement by which the Texas and Pacific would stop at Sierra Blanca, in Hudspeth County, and the two lines would share the track from Sierra Blanca to El Paso.


Extraction of minerals has long been important in Culberson County, although rumors of fabulously wealthy gold mines in the Guadalupes seem to be mere wishful thinking. Around 1875 an old prospector named Ben Sublett strode into a saloon and casually tossed a buckskin pouch full of gold nuggets onto the bar, hinting broadly that he had discovered them in the Guadalupes. All efforts to get him to reveal the exact location of his find were unsuccessful; he took his secret to the grave in 1892, leaving his son to search in vain for the mine.

Gen. Lew Wallace, the author of Ben-Hur and governor of New Mexico from 1878 to 1881, said he found references in the Spanish archives in Santa Fe to rich gold deposits in the Guadalupes, but the exact location had been lost. The Apache chief Geronimo also claimed that the Spanish had mined the area, and that the Guadalupes contained the richest mines in North America. More recent opinion holds such claims unlikely.

Other minerals have been less elusive. Between the late nineteenth century and the mid-twentieth century the Hazel Mine
yielded about a million pounds of copper and more than two million ounces of silver. In the 1940s acidic sulfur earth was
produced at Rustler Springs for use as a fertilizer and soil conditioner, and the Apache Mountains were the site of the largest barite deposit in Texas, which was mined from open pits during the 1960s. A mica quarry operated in the early 1980s in the Van Horn Mountains to mine mica schist for oilfield use, but the sustained production of sheet mica had not been achieved. Culberson County was also producing copper, bedded gypsum from surface mines, brucitic marble, molybdenum, crushed hyolite, silver, Frasch sulfur, and talc in the 1980s. (note no gold)

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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2011, 12:51:46 pm »
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If there were nuggets and dust there should be assay reports somewhere. That's what keeps bothering me. None of the usual lost mine parameters seem to have happened aside from the 3 others who visited but couldn't refind the mine.  That's what keeps me thinking cache. But if he only showed up with coin wouldn't the stories reflect that?

As for coin the banker said he always deposited cash and there is only 2 reports of Ben having gold. I figure he had found a cache of cash and gold getting rid of the cash first or as Jones pointed out on his 30 day trips was selling off gold for easier to explain cash. Back in them days I bet more then one prospector sold gold under different names you did not need a photo ID to buy a cop of coffee like today. 

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« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2011, 01:26:43 am »
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Hello All

Some fascinating stuff here. Everyone has made some excellent points.

Just amazing where a treasure legend will take you with a little research.

hardluck 

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« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2011, 03:39:19 pm »
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I have heard of a mine near Presidio but never Heard of Sublett, This has really got my interest

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« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2011, 10:11:23 pm »
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Well if the Spanish said there was gold there, Im gonna have to look.

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