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Offline ron_o
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« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2009, 03:48:13 pm »
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Hi,

Cheep toilet cleaners / limescale removers contain Hydrochloric Acid  and surfactants , and will therefore etch the copper pcb.

Sodium hypochlorite/ate is bleach.

The etching properties of Ferric Chloride can be improved by tne addition of Hydochloric Acid
but the risk of damage to thin tracks also increases ( "eating" from the edges and going under the etch resist )

Hope this helps

Regards

Ron

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Offline Eugene52
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« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2009, 07:46:17 pm »
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Thank-You everyone who posted on this topic so far . Now its almost so easy a "Caveman like me" can do it . Now I need to buy a cheap laserjet printer !! 
Regards.........Eugene

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« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 07:48:33 pm by Eugene52 »
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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2009, 07:53:24 pm »
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Eugene52, it's a pity you don't live here in Perth because I have two perfectly functioning LaserJet III printers languishing in my print room just hanging onto the network in case I ever need them again. Every morning, I dust them off and they look at me with questioning buttons asking, "Will today be the day you use us?" Sadly for them, I haven't used them in 2 years time so I'm going to disconnect them and give them away. I have a few extra cartridges for them, too.

Don't tell them. I can't stand it when they cry.

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Offline Eugene52
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« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2009, 08:35:59 pm »
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Quote:Posted by GoldDigger1950
Eugene52, it's a pity you don't live here in Perth because I have two perfectly functioning LaserJet III printers languishing in my print room just hanging onto the network in case I ever need them again. Every morning, I dust them off and they look at me with questioning buttons asking, "Will today be the day you use us?" Sadly for them, I haven't used them in 2 years time so I'm going to disconnect them and give them away. I have a few extra cartridges for them, too.

Don't tell them. I can't stand it when they cry.


Hello GD . Free is always a tempting offer , but shipping from Perth to where I am working now [Los Angeles] would be expensive . I have not decided yet if I will send them to a vendor or make the PCB's myself , its a time issue ........ I heard Australia is a Great place to live . Is that rumor true ?
Best Regards...........Eugene

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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2009, 08:54:26 pm »
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Quote:Posted by Eugene52
Hello GD . Free is always a tempting offer , but shipping from Perth to where I am working now [Los Angeles] would be expensive . I have not decided yet if I will send them to a vendor or make the PCB's myself , its a time issue ........ I heard Australia is a Great place to live . Is that rumor true ?
Best Regards...........Eugene


Absolutely. Perth is lovely. It's like Southern California with different birds and no such thing as rush hour. The only drawback is the occupation by large numbers of populations didn't really begin until the 1890s or so. Not much in the way of settler relics or before since the Aboriginals were a stone age people before the Europeans got here. Their weapons were mostly fire hardened wood which also makes arrowheads and spear tips a bit of a really rare item here.

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« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2009, 10:07:29 am »
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Quote:Posted by ron_o
Hi,

Cheep toilet cleaners / limescale removers contain Hydrochloric Acid  and surfactants , and will therefore etch the copper pcb.

Sodium hypochlorite/ate is bleach.

The etching properties of Ferric Chloride can be improved by tne addition of Hydochloric Acid
but the risk of damage to thin tracks also increases ( "eating" from the edges and going under the etch resist )

Hope this helps

Regards

Ron


Sodium hypochlorate IS bleach, exactly what I said, however, the only difference, for purposes of etching, between sodium hypochlorate and hydrogen chloride is one sodium atom: HCl:OH or H2Cl is aqueous muriatic acid; NaHCl + H2O is bleach, far milder. The video called for two cups of bleach and one cup of acid, and that is extremely more caustic than ferric chloride. Probably just as good with 3 cups of bleach and no acid.

The lacquer thinner is plain old methanol.... wood alcohol. Incidentally, the rough scrubbing of the copper is not necessary, just wipe with rubbing alcohol and let it evaporate, this will remove any oils, which is the purpose of this exercise.

You can burn up your boards, if  you like but there are easier ways of getting the resist on that board.... a little finger oil probably would not matter, after that iron!

I prefer photo work.

goldigger

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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2009, 11:06:00 am »
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Ferric Chloride is just about the weakest solution that will etch copper traces. It's used for good reason. Etching too fast with other "cheaper" solutions may undercut the smaller traces and cause open circuits where you don't want them. When you wash Ferric Chloride off, it doesn't need a neutralizer. Some other solutions do. If you use only water and leave trace amounts of dried chemical on the board, any humidity in the air can activate it and cause it to etch again inside of your working project. A slow etch makes the best boards. Even heating the solution can cause problems so it's most often used at room temperature. Gentle rocking is all right and some people use an aerator to keep the solution moving.

No matter how much it costs, Ferric Chloride isn't that expensive. If you don't like the price, make your own Ferric Chloride using scrap iron. It's not that hard and it's time tested to do the job.

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Offline kevinr
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« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2009, 01:48:35 pm »
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Quote:Posted by vpr2064
absolutely,
I use a laserjet printer on photo gloss paper, an inkjet wont work. reason is laserjet toner is actually made from plastic and melted onto the paper with a heat roller or actual laser. to put the image on a copper board is just a reverse process. i usually darken the copy to get more toner on the paper. if the copy looks bad so will the board. prep board with scotch brite then clean with acetone or finger nail polish remover. dont use steelwool.

1. double check that you have the correct orientation of the print.
2. using a standard iron on high and no water i pre heat the board (you don’t have to pre heat).
3. place the copy face down on the copper board, be careful not to move it or it will smudge the image.
4. do not twist the iron or slide it. try to get as much of the iron on the image as possible and apply some pressure, lift it and get the rest. i do this for about a minute until i feel it is melted.
5. place the board in a bucket of water for about 5 minutes or until the paper is completely soaked then remove and peel the paper away.

The melted toner is pretty tough but can be scratched off by using to much scrubbing to get the paper off. i use my finger and rub what’s left over. check the board circuit after removing the paper to see how everything looks, if its bad use acetone remove the toner and do it again or doctor some minor areas with a sharpie or circuit pen. then i etch using the above method. drill the holes clean with acetone and iron another image of the parts on the component side.

VPR




Will any photo glossy paper work or does it have to be a specific kind. I was about to buy some transfers and then read your article here. It sure would be nice to be able to get all supplies locally.

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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2009, 03:14:19 pm »
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Quote:Posted by kevinr
Will any photo glossy paper work or does it have to be a specific kind. I was about to buy some transfers and then read your article here. It sure would be nice to be able to get all supplies locally.


Transfer papers sometimes overlay the entire image with wax - even the clear spaces. Not good. Use either erasable bond typing paper (sometimes called Corrasable) or translucent tracing velum in your laser printer. After you iron on the image, let it cool then soak the board in warm water and soap to soften the paper. When it softens, lift it up and using only your finger, wipe off all fibers left behind near the traces. Pat it dry, don't wipe it, and etch. The resist areas will wash off with hot water or you can use nail polish remover.

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« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2009, 03:28:52 am »
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Quote:Posted by kevinr
Will any photo glossy paper work or does it have to be a specific kind. I was about to buy some transfers and then read your article here. It sure would be nice to be able to get all supplies locally.


According to the authors, it has to be LASER PHOTO PAPER, nothing else will work.

I am going to play with "gum prints," later this winter, and see if the gum is chloride proof, which I suspect it is, as it is the basis of commercial, masked, photo-sensitive, pc boards. Gum prints use ammonium or  potassium disulphide (poisonous carcinogens!) to harden Gum Acacia (Gum Arabic,) where the light has not hit the gum emulsion. So it makes a resist. The resist can wash off with hot water, after etching.

Of course, I will develope a "lazy man's" method to do this, mainly because I can not keep track of complex things.

I started looking for directions on how to make a colloidal emulsion, for glass plates, as the same can be done on copper and the emulsion can be hardened with methanol, after developing the "print," which hardens it (the term is "tans" as in leather,) so it will stand up to the etchant.

I used to have the directions but I guess the internet got here too late to preserve the data.  Shocked


I just have to get a round "tooit."

goldigger



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