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Offline xavier
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« Reply #40 on: October 26, 2012, 02:03:11 pm »
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Quote:Posted by homefire
Here is the Original Provided by Carl.

Man I can't see a thing on that LOL cant you post a better one? I'd appreciate it as I would like to put it into my detector folder

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So many questions so little time

Offline DjjjrTopic starter
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« Reply #41 on: October 27, 2012, 10:33:49 am »
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Ok

As i understand PI
I need to pulse on for 20 to 100ms but the avg. for gold is under 50ms
then i read back from the coil the phase shift change or voltage
then i repeat this as many times a second as i can.  min being 40 times
is that correct so far?
I get a ground ref. compare the readings and display the results
I think that's the way i read it.



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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #42 on: October 27, 2012, 03:18:18 pm »
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Quote:Posted by Djjjr
As i understand PI
I need to pulse on for 20 to 100ms but the avg. for gold is under 50ms
then i read back from the coil the phase shift change or voltage
then i repeat this as many times a second as i can.  min being 40 times
is that correct so far?
I get a ground ref. compare the readings and display the results
I think that's the way i read it.

None of that is wrong but some of that will vary with soil conditions. The timing is important for field collapse more then the metal under detection. You see, in a PI machine the coil is used for both TX and RX. If you stay on too long, the field will not collapse in time for the RX to "see" the return so there is a quiet time known as blanking and that's where the timing is important.

The TX signal sets up eddy currents inside of the target. For ferrous targets, the eddy currents are internal and they set up a field that has a N-S polarity. In non ferrous metals, the eddy currents are set on the surface and each tiny area will have its own N-S alignment making the field a scattered one. Because of that, the field strength is not as pronounced in gold and silver. In iron, the signal is long lived and very strong.

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« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2012, 10:33:48 am »
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ok

i don’t remember if there was a total time
say you have a 50ms pulse what is the total time? is there such a time?
what would happen if i pulsed say 20ms and then 5 times then added 10ml and repeated this to say 100 ms
would there be any benefit.
or when calibrating the ground do some thing like that for best response.
 


Posted on: October 28, 2012, 10:13:39 AM
this is someone else's work

This does come up time to time and it isn't a matter of semantics. Back EMF simply is not the spike that you get from a coil when the field collapses.

You charge a coil - lenz's law describes the counter current or back emf that opposes the forward current and resists the forward current's ability to bring the coil's charge up...

Once the coil is charged and you disconnect power, the spike you get back is the "inductive spike" or "transient spike."

You can see Lenz's law here:
Faraday's Law
It is at the bottom.

Look at this nice simple answer:
WikiAnswers - What is the formula for transient spike computation in an inductive load

"E=I x R. The inductive spike occurs as the circuit is opened. The collapsing magnetic field causes the inductor to become the source of the circuit. For example consider a circuit consisting of a 10 volt battery, a 10 mh inductor, and a 10 ohm resistor all in series. With the switch closed, 1 amp will flow through the circuit (after 5 mS). The 5 mS is the time it takes the current to rise from 0 to 1 amp. This is given by the formual TC=L/R where TC is the time constant in seconds, L is the inductance in henries, and R is the resistance in ohms. It takes 5 time constants for the current to reach the maximum current which is determined by I=E/R (Ohm's Law). The delay is caused by the counter EMF generated in the coil as flux lines cut through adjacent turns of the inductor. After 5 time constants, the current is at 1 amp. When we open the switch, it will take 5 time constants for the current to drop to 0 amps. However, this will not be 5 mS because the resistance is now much larger do to the opening switch contacts. The voltage across the switch contacts will be whatever is necessary to maintain the current flow for the 5 time constants. After one time constant, the current will have dropped to 32% of the maximum current or in this case, 0.32 amps. If the resistance of the switch gap is 1 megohm, the the voltage will be 320,000 volts. More than enough to ionize the air and create a conductive path. If we assume an average resistance of 1 megohm, it will take 50 nS for the current to drop to 0. Of course during this time, the switch contact gets zapped. Placing a diode across the inductor such that the diode is reverse biased with the switch closed will give the current an alternate path as the polarity of the inductor reverses when the magnetic field collapses and the inductor becomes the source. This lowers the voltage from 1,000,000 volts to 0.7 volts. The downside is that the time it takes for the current decrease increases bo the ratio of 1,000,000/0.7. In a relay, this may cause the relay to "chatter" when opening. Adding a zener diode in series anode to anode with the spike suppressing diode will alleivate most chattering problems. A 34.3 volt zener will raise the voltage from 0,7v to 35v and shorten the time by a factor of 50 (35/.0.7). "

So you can see that it takes 5ms to charge the coil because the back emf opposes the forward current...that is the delay of charging the coil...the back emf.

You can see it takes 50ns to go back to 0. Why so fast? There is no more back emf opposing anything.

I don't agree that the calculation of the spike is as straight forward as this because other things come into play with sharp gradients.

But you can clearly see the back emf is NOT the spike that comes back. The spikes we are capturing and putting to use is the "inductive spike" or "transient spike" and I believe it does matter what it is called because there are very specific names for these very specific well-known events that have been established for a really long time.

People experimenting with the free energy stuff won't have much credibility in the general world of science calling the spike back emf.

They can believe what the want, that is fine but it is simply ample evidence for them to show that people in this "free energy" field don't even know what they're talking about and they would be correct. Let's not give them any ammunition. If they see that we do know the difference, it is just less resistance (back emf) that we have to work against in getting this stuff out there. It really is an inductive spike or transient spike and the back emf is already gone.

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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #44 on: October 28, 2012, 06:07:14 pm »
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The total time will vary based on your TX pulse width and the additional delay for the field collapse. There's no rule. It's all up to the designer.

Maybe now you are getting an idea of how difficult it is to design any metal detector. You've only scratched the surface, too. You have maximum power to calculate, audio circuitry, housing, cabling and then there's the all important coil. This should take you a couple of years.

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It's all about that moment when metal that hasn't seen the light of day for generations frees itself from the soil and presents itself to me.
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« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2012, 12:48:40 pm »
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 Grin Grin Took me three and I still aint happy

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Offline DjjjrTopic starter
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« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2012, 09:08:36 am »
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http://www.lammertbies.nl/electronics/PI_metal_detector.html

 
I'm wondering is this article looks sound for information. 
something i ran across while doing my research


Don


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Offline xavier
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« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2012, 12:46:51 pm »
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Yes but his project never got any further than this. it must about three years ago that I read it (Still where it was)

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