WHY WERE THE STONE MAPS CREATED?

goldigger,

Here are the facts that I have used to support my hypothesis concerning the creation of the 2 stone maps.

   1. All of the church treasures disappeared prior to the Expulsion 1767
   2. All Jesuit gold and silver bullion disappeared prior to the Expulsion 1767
   3. The Gila River was the northern boundary for Pimeria Alta
   4. The stone maps were found hidden in a church in Sonora
   5. Father Carlos Rojas, SJ, was the priest in charge of the mission chain prior to the Expulsion 1767
   6. Father Rojas was imprisioned for life in Cadiz and treated as a prisioner of war
   7. The stone maps were created by a master map maker containing 4-5 imbedded maps including a star map
   8. Only the Jesuits were capable of such maps in the 1700's

These are only the major facts leading to my opinions concerning the the 2 stone maps as leading to a cache and not a notice of a town meeting.

azmula

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		Quote:			Posted by azmula
	goldigger, I do not defend the Jesuits; I am merely presenting facts as I have found them in my research. There is good and bad in every religion. I have found over many years of study that I do not support the business of religion. I have my own interpretation of a religion that suites my needs and wants. It is never wise to debate religion, so I stop here. It depends on what you call ?GOOD? but if you read about Fathers? Kino, Bolton, Polzer or Mateo Manje you might gain some additional insight. It is easy to find negative writings based on opinions but positive issues need a deeper level of investigation. Most priests, not all, performed the Jesuit conversions very carefully. The Spanish were not as skillful and often were brutal in what they called ?conversion to the church?. The Vatican has fewer original documents that it would ever want to see the light of day. Especially the gold receipts from New Spain, which acquired with out Spanish knowledge. The Jesuit reputations were varied and require interpretation based on the author (Francis Parkman) and the circumstances that involved the Jesuits. I think you will find that when the Jesuits were seen negatively they were often under the direction of the Pope. It was known that the expulsion was coming and the Spanish King was watching everything the Jesuits were shipping back to the Vatican (Pope). Most of the gold and silver was being stockpiled until a safe time to ship it back to the Pope. This is a fact that is well documented throughout the New World. The Order also cached the church sacraments because they knew the King would melt them down for the gold, silver, and jewels. The priests of the Society of Jesus swore obedience to their four vows, one of which was poverty. Mike McChesney (gollum) has documented many of these facts as I have written both here on this forum and his own website. You are not allowed to view links. Please Register or Login http://www.1oro1.com I hope this helps in your research. azmula

I think you hit on the key phrase: "under the direction of the Pope." It should rather be "Under the interpretation of the direction of the Pope."

I Have seen a copy of the translation of the Papal Bull that said the Portuguese and the Spanish should divide the SPIRITUAL opportunities of converting millions to the Church; The Portuguese to the south and the Spanish to the north, of a certain latitude.

Well, of course they used this Papal Bull as an excuse to tear riches from the lands, and take slaves: "the Pope authorized the possession of these lands."

This was dissembling at its finest! Nothing was farther from the truth. Of course the Spanish could not accept the cold of the north, so competed with the Portuguese, in the south.

The only greater dissembling was the "discovery of America" by Christoforo Colon.... with all its inhabitants, who knew where they were, before he came along. How do you claim an already occupied land? Dissembling!

If the Papal Bull had been more specific, history could have been very different. Maybe.

I do not think either, the Church or the Portuguese/Spanish crowns, can be singled out.... they were co-conspirators, pretty well.

It made for rich and interesting leavings for the rest of us!

Apparently the Spanish DID venture as far north as lower, central BC. There have been a few artifacts, which have surfaced, and there are a few stories, of an ambush, by local natives with the motive of revenge, it seems, which wiped out the Spanish party.

goldigger

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Azmula: Actually the Pope was the supreme leader of the church and his directions were not open to ?interpretation?.

Want to bet?

Azmula: Perhaps you might want to reassess your interpretation of the division of the world?s ?wealth? not conversions. The Pope would supply the missionaries to do the conversions and the kings would have the wealth. See the Treaty of Tordesillas for the division of the world by the Pope and for additional details.

I t was not my interpretation, besides, the Bull specifically states souls and not lands.

Azmula: The Spanish explored and conquered west of the Tordesillas longitude(49 to 50 degrees west) and the Portuguese had to the east (Brazil, Africa, Asia, etc.). Then come France, England and the Dutch.

And fought over it. That is what I said, I think.

Azmula: With further analysis one will determine that the Bourbon courts of Europe and the Pope had different agendas for the new world.

Of course; after all, it was not the Pope's intent to leave them out, it was his staff, after all, the Pope is infallible!

Apparently the Spanish DID venture as far north as lower, central BC. There have been a few artifacts, which have surfaced, and there are a few stories, of an ambush, by local natives with the motive of revenge, it seems, which wiped out the Spanish party.?

That is well  beyond 50 degrees. 

I do not need a history lesson, thank you.... I hate history! 

goldigger

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		Quote:			Posted by azmula
	goldigger, The division of the world by the Pope was based on 49-50 degrees longitude (Greenwich). As you know the longitudinal lines were based on Tenerife as the meridian and they ran counterclockwise. This line of demarcation only meant something to the Spanish and Portugese. I am like you in that I do not enjoy reading history unless it pertains to the solutuion of a project I am interested. Good Luck, azmula

I do not think the Greenwich 0 meridian was an established, then, in fact the good chronograph was not invented until much later, by a certain British clock maker who's first chronograph was about as big as a primitive piano. I think he may have established the 15 degree basis we now use.

I am not sure of the dates and I do know the Spanish/Portuguese had nothing like this for many years, it was solely a British developement.

I will do some digging... and see.

goldigger

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YES, marks231 there is a pot of gold...

azmula
Re: WHY WERE THE STONE MAPS CREATED?
? Reply #16 on: November 27, 2009, 05:23:33 AM ?
     
 
Quote:
Posted by azmula

?goldigger,
The division of the world by the Pope was based on 49-50 degrees longitude (Greenwich). As you know the longitudinal lines were based on Tenerife as the meridian and they ran counterclockwise. This line of demarcation only meant something to the Spanish and Portugese.

I am like you in that I do not enjoy reading history unless it pertains to the solutuion of a project I am interested.

Good Luck,
azmula?

Quote:
Posted by goldigger

?I do not think the Greenwich 0 meridian was an established, then, in fact the good chronograph was not invented until much later, by a certain British clock maker who's first chronograph was about as big as a primitive piano. I think he may have established the 15 degree basis we now use.

I am not sure of the dates and I do know the Spanish/Portuguese had nothing like this for many years, it was solely a British developement.

I will do some digging... and see.

goldigger?


I apologize that I was apparently not sufficiently clear in my description of the Tenerife and Greenwich meridians. Here is a second attempt. Using coordinates from missionary records and comparing it to gps readings of today I found less than 5⁰ difference in the coordinates. I also included a reference to the methods used with astrolabes for both longitude and latitude. Missionaries carried astrolabes for navigating Pimeria Alta.

azmula



Tenerife, Canary Islands:

28?16′7″N    latitude
16?36′20″W   longitude


In the spring of 1494, representatives of Spain and Portugal met in the Spanish town of Tordesillas and negotiated a mutually satisfactory solution to their dispute. The line of demarcation was relocated to a position 370 leagues west of the Cape Verde Islands. The longitude for this line of demarcation using Greenwich as 0degreeso is approximately 46degrees. Using the Spanish map 0degrees longitude of the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, that longitude becomes approximately 286⁰.

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