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Offline Cornelius
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« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 04:10:16 pm »
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Keith finally somebody that understands the sea . Regards  Cornelius

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« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 04:13:13 pm »
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Quote:Posted by Cornelius
Do you mean that he did not find it before but that he has found it now ?  Let me tell you that Marx has not worked in Indonesia for quite a few years  . I know the area quite good . A magnetometer search will not do the job because of all the metal junk in the Strait of Malaca  .The wreck is most likely silted over and cannot be found by using a ROV . Besides the visability is downright bad in the area . So if the Flor do Mar is ever found it will be by accident . The local fishermen are ther best way of getting any information . Even if you have to check every possible site it will take you years of searching .  What gets me though is that a guy is trying to sell coins from the Flor do Mar but did not go after the fabulous rich cargo. Something is not cosher here .  Cornelius


He said he found it. That's good enough for most folk. Should people here demand you prove your finds or would you rather keep them close to your vest until you have had time to salvage them?

All I am saying is that he claims he has found it. Before he made that claim, your statement was true. Nobody HAD found it. Now, someone has.

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Offline Cornelius
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« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 04:23:16 pm »
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GoldDigger . No Sir you are wrong here .  I spent over 25 years in Indonesia ( on and off ) . I ran around with the  ,, big guys ,, overthere .  If you just would look at the itinnerary ( spelling ? ) of Robert Marx you would come to the conclusion that he is not speaking the truth  .  If he had discovered the  Flor do Mar I would know .  ( permits and cooperation with the Indonesian government officials ) . You may think about it differently than I do . That is your right .  But if you talk Indonesia , I know !     Regards cornelius

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« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2009, 04:27:18 pm »
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Quote:Posted by Cornelius
GoldDigger . No Sir you are wrong here .  I spent over 25 years in Indonesia ( on and off ) . I ran around with the  ,, big guys ,, overthere .  If you just would look at the itinnerary ( spelling ? ) of Robert Marx you would come to the conclusion that he is not speaking the truth  .  If he had discovered the  Flor do Mar I would know .  ( permits and cooperation with the Indonesian government officials ) . You may think about it differently than I do . That is your right .  But if you talk Indonesia , I know !     Regards cornelius


What is wrong with you, mate? He claims that he has found it. If you were not there, you cannot possibly know. You are speaking from a point of ignorance, not knowledge. Let the man have his moment. He can eventually prove he has found it. You cannot ever prove he has not. All you can do is guess.

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« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2009, 04:37:09 pm »
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GoldDigger . I have a position in Indonesia to know . I gave you a few points to think about . If you don't give these a second look so be it . Regards  Cornelius

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« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2009, 04:42:46 pm »
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Cornelius, there is a way you can simply state that you do not believe Robert Marx without calling him a liar. You said his claim was false. In effect, you called him a liar and that is not what these forums are all about. Disagreements are inevitable but you seem to thrive on them.

Are you now going to delete all of my posts on this subject like you did the last time we disagreed?

The original post referred to an article. Nothing more. The article should stand as testimony from the first person, which is normally good enough to be considered evidence. Your position is based on speculation and some notion that because you have BEEN to Indonesia, you somehow know better. Well, my friend, I have BEEN to Indonesia, too.

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« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2009, 04:58:52 pm »
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GoldDigger . Let me clear up one thing . I did not visit Indonesia as a tourist . I was appointed by the gouvernment of Indonesia  . Where you there as a tourist ? Nice country don't you think ?  I called Marx a liar because he did NOT discover the wreck of the Flor do Mar . As a matter of fact he and his Indonesian partner tried to get some additional financing from a malaysian business man . This was declined however by this gentleman . I don't thrive on disagreements , I just want to set things straight . I am not talking about something I don't know anything about. And as far as deleting goes , let me tell you that I never deleted any posts by anybody . The only posts  I have deleted were the posts from the members from the Philipines  and only then when they were written in their native language  ( we have an English net  although I have sometimes  a lot of trouble spelling  Wink  )   My position is not taken based on speculation .  Why don't you check the travels of Marx ?    Regards  Cornelius   

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« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2009, 05:01:00 pm »
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Read what he gave as testimony. He is informing the world of his find. He is also willing to prove his discovery. You have no direct knowledge of his facts. You are guessing. You are also libeling him. This is very poor form, Cornelius.

And you did delete my posts about Dell. No question about that.

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« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 05:02:37 pm by GoldDigger1950 »
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« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2009, 05:03:02 pm »
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Frol De La Mar 
 
 There are many styles of the name for this wreck, "Flor De La mar" Frol de La Mar" and "Flor do Mar" all of which mean "Flower of the Sea" Albuquerque himself in a letter to the King of Portugal calls it the "Frol De La Mar" so i use this one. 
 
 The cargo 
 
 Gold, Diamonds, Rubies, Ornate golden figurines with eyes, tongue, teeth, and nails made out of precious stones. Some accounts say that there was 60 tonnes of booty on board when she sank, there are no known manifests of the cargo yet uncovered or disclosed, but think about this? 2000 pieces of precious items were taken from the Sultanate of Malacca's palace alone, it took three days of ferrying cargo back and forth to the Frol De La Mar  and two other ships to load all the precious cargo, think about this to? Some of the artifacts were gifts from the king of Siam (Thailand) to the king of Portugal, but most of the cargo was from Malacca? The richest seaport in Asia at that time, As one of Albuquerque's personal secretaries puts it when speaking about the loss, and I quote: On that moment the nau broke in two by the deck and sunk. And with it was lost a great treasure in gold and precious stones, greater as never before in India and never again in the future. :End quote 
 
 Here's another quote from one of his secretaries: 
 
 Aboard these ships was the rich plunder of Malacca the most rich objects ever seen,which the Governor brought on this trip intending to offer them to D.Maria, the Queen, and to the King himself. I personally heard from him that he was carrying a four leg trepeccedila d'assentar (table) in which the queen of malaca used to take her meals, that worth eighty thousand cruzados, for such was the value offered by the captains, even the merchants of Malacca offered him three hundred thousand cruzados just for its precious stones. And he was also carrying four sitting lions made of gold, and vatildeos (by being hollow) they held perfumes inside, and they used to be in the chamber of the king of Malacca, their eyes, tongue, teeth and nails were made of precious stones, and their value was estimated in two hundred thousand cruzados; besides these precious objects there were other but smaller items, about which, I saw him [the Governor] swear, to the Santiago's habit he was wearing, that all the presents for the King, once in Lisboa, would worth one conto of gold. 
 
 A salvage attempt, South East Asia Salvage. (S.E.A.S) 
 
 Here is a quick overview of the S.E.A.S. attempt at salvaging the Frol De La Mar, this was written by one of the divers on the project, and despite all the press releases and stories rumored about the Frol De La Mar being found, This is the truth? and i quote. 
 
 (1). 1989 a group of Australian and American treasure salvers along with Indonesian businessman Tjetty form "South, East, Asia, Salvage". Mr. Paul Martino being the owner. 
 
 (2). Clues South, East, Asia, Salvage, had to work with, (1). The ship was lost on a rock or reef on the coast of Sumatra just opposite the kingdom of Daru, (2). Survivors had managed to reach the river Pacem. (3). The ships final resting place was that the rock (reef) was within a cannon shot from shore. 
 
 (3). Two principal survey points being established as Tamiang, and Pasai, approximate distance between them, 60 miles. Decision is made to survey the entire 60 miles between between the two main survey points. 
 
 (4). May 1989 surveys begin, two and one half months later the items found are several old anchors, A Chinese junk rudder, A steamship propeller, A sunken W.W.II wreck of which a gas mask, brass wheel, and some bottles were found. 
 
 (5). March 1990 a decision is made to abandon the tamiang area and move north to Pasai. 
 
 (6). March 8th 1990 surveys begin around Karang Timau. 
 
 (7). March 15th 1990 S.E.A.S. hires Archaeologist Robert Marx who claims to have the location of the Frol De La Mar. 
 
 (Cool. March 25th 1990 a ten meter long piece of wood is found, it is believed to be from the Frol De La Mar. 
 
 (9). March 26th 1990 two hundred meters southwest of tengah reef a large magnetometer reading is registered, Marx claims it is ferrous metal from the Frol De La Mar, dives with the hand held maggy reveal nothing. Airlifting begins and a hole is dug 14 feet deep and 10 feet wide, Nothing Found?. Airlifting is abandoned and surveys continue. 
 
 (10). August 1st 1990 digging continues with a clamshell at the site 200 meters southwest of tengah reef, three months later all that is found is some bottles and wood, No treasure. On tengah reef itself a few ballast stones were found. 
 
 (11). October 29th 1990 Survey and salvage is abandoned on the Frol De La Mar and since no one has ever returned. 
 
 (12). 1992 South. East. Asia. Salvage. Dissolves 
 
 Magazine article exposed (Skin Diver Mag. March 92) 
 
 In the march 1992 issue of Skin Diver Magazine was front page news "80 Billion dollar Treasure" lost and found, inside was a four or five page article which described the conquests of Albuquerque and his fellows on the sea road to the orient, and the conquest of "Malacca" the richest seaport in Asia for that time. Very well written and the history was well researched, theres only one thing? They never found the wreck, have a look at this book. "Shipwrecks and Sunken Treasure in South East Asia" by Tony wells, there a section devoted to the truth of the search for the "Flor Do Mar" . also in the Skin diver mag  article it had pictures of porcelain figurines and a Golden statue? Rumor has it the picture of the golden figure was snapped outside of the antique shop where they were looking at it? rumor also has it that the porcelain figurines were also obtained from an antique shop?. 
 
 Now how could these items have escaped Mr. Tony Wells the author of the book above and a diver on the project, he claims never to have seen them come up from the seabed, as do all the other divers on the project, as well as the Indonesian Government. There never was any kind of solid evidence that they had even remotely located the Frol De La Mar. 
 
 More research (A different point of view) 
 
 ;First things first? Lets take a closer look at the research S.E.A.S. had to work with, (1) The ship was lost on a rock or reef on the coast of Sumatra just opposite the kingdom of Daru. (2). Survivors had managed to reach the river Pacem. (3)The ships final resting place was that the rock or reef was within a cannon shot distance from shore. 
 
 (1). As far as I know and from the research I had seen and from that that was published in shipwrecks and sunken treasure in south east Asia by Tony Wells who was a diver on the project, Nobody really knew where the kingdom of Daru was (one account even says that it,s on the west coast of sumatra), they assumed that it was the modern day Teluk Aru which is just south of their no.1 survey point (Tamiang) well the modern day Teluk Aru is not where the Historical kingdom of Daru was located. 
 
 (2). The survivors had managed to reach the river Pacem, well again we have a misunderstanding because it was assumed that the river pacem corresponded to the Pasai river, the name Pasai doesnt always corospond to Pacem. it depends on the chronicler. 
 
 (3). The ships final resting place was within a cannon shot distance from shore?( not according to the eyewitness, he says they were surrounded by shoals a  alot further than a cannon could fire. ) Ive been researching this wreck for five years (as of 1997) and not once have I come across any records that say she sank a cannon shot distance from shore,  a cannon shot from shore is very close? its not consistent with the eyewitness.   
 
 (4). The last piece of research was the "X marx the spot" map supplied by their acting Archaeologist Mr. Robert Marx, this map actually had on it "Aqui Seperdo De Alfonso De Albuquerque" which translates to "Here Lies Alfonso De Albuquerque" at the northeast end of Sumatra where they clamshelled for months and found nothing. (Tengah Reef). after that One would think that after this something was wrong with the map, "There Is" the X is several miles south east of diamond point which puts them well offshore, if currents were running north they wouldnt have reached land.. 
 
 Final Note: In March of 98 an Eyewitness account was located,  unfortunately it brings some disappointing news?
the account says that the Frol De La Mar sank in 4 fathoms of water (24 feet). This vessel was said to have the highest of both fore and aft castles of Albuquerque's fleet and comparable to that of the Chinese junks, if this is the case then I would assume that they were in between 20-30 feet high, well if she sank in the depth that was said (and this would fit because all along the northeast coast of Sumatra close to shore these kind of depths would be found) then chances are that this wreck was still visible from the surface and very accessible to the local divers of that area, reports also state that when she sank she later broke into two parts so she probably ended up laying on her side, if so she would only lie 5-10 feet below the surface and still very accessible to the local pearl divers, so you would have to assume that most of the cargo would have been salvaged, also there is an account that says the son in law of the King of Aru (the King of Bata) after the sinking became very wealthy. but there was also a  junk with them that was forced into the shore  and that it was carying large amounts of plunder because they couldnt fit it all on the Frol. 
 
 Here are some reason why I would continue: she certainly would not be worth what most people think, but you have to think about this, when she sank she broke into two pieces, I would assume that alot of the cargo would have spilled out onto the seabed, and when she sank according to the eyewitness she immediately filled with water thus not very accessible to the Portuguese, although im sure that most of the cargo was salved by the locals think about this. 
 
 (1). She sank in a high current area, 2 knots plus and in a storm 
 
 (2). Most of the northeast coast of Sumatra is very muddy and has zero visibility water 
 
 (3). The bottom is comprised of mud and sand, the smaller cargo would have sank into it very quickly, especially in a storm. 
 
 (4). The cargo was comprised of Gold, Diamonds, Rubies, jars of gold dust, etc. small items (easily sinking into the seabed) 
 
 All this being the case chances are that when the wreck occurred is was a violent one and strong enough to break the vessel into two pieces, so it probably cracked a few chests open as well and onto the seabed, and being in a very high current area with a muddy and sandy bottom as well as in the stormy season, the cargo or what was left that would not be easily seen and was covered quickly by mud and sand. I would say that there is in all probability a third of the cargo left. The Frol De La Mar has been reported to be the richest shipwreck to sink in that part of the world, and by reading some of the stories written you would think so to. So what would be left to this day is only speculation based on available information, common sense, and a definite will to survive in this industry. I personally think that its worth going after and that all involved would profit to a satisfactory degree, its a fantastic story of Portuguese conquest, and it all happened nearly 500 years ago. 
 
   
 
 Personal history and other salvage projects 
 
 My background is this: I originally came over to Singapore for a position on the first Flor Do Mar project in January of 1991, I stayed until Sept of that same year, never saw any active participation because of the declining position of the salvage company I was working for, while in Singapore I did meet a lot of people involved with the project and got to know some of the politics and truths behind the project itself, I became very interested in this project and started doing some of my own research, the more I found the more interested I became, I was in the states for seven months and returned too Singapore in may of 1992 to continue my research. (Funded by some investors and by diving commercially up until now) My research has been conducted at various places such as, University California San Diego, Scripps Institute of Oceanography, University of California Los Angeles, National University Singapore, National library of Singapore, and have worked with some notable historians on Malacca, a Mr. Gerry Fernandez of Malacca, and Mr. Surinder Singh of Kuala Lumpur, ,as well as having researchers in England and Portugal. Ive compiled a large amount of research on this Wreck. the exact location of the wreck was recorded?

Salvage projects ive attended.
Frol De La Mar   1991  unsuccessful
The Dianna Cargo 1994  successful
The Brunei Junk   1997   successful   

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 That would be myself holding a tureen in 1994 on the "Diana" project, 26.000 pieces of ching dynasty porcelain salvaged in 2 1/2 months, Sale price? 3.2 million at Christies in Amsterdam, I was salvage diver and video technician from Feb 7th 1994 until June 1st of the same year. (This photo originally appeared in the London sunday times. 
 
 These pieces were found at 110 feet in almost zero visibility, most of the navigation around the wreck was done by colored ropes, on a good day with no current and at the right time of the month we could see 4 or 5 feet.

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Some good reading..................

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« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2009, 05:06:25 pm »
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GoldDigger . You are sparring for a fight . Sorry mate !  Next time .  Regards  Cornelius

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