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Offline ChristianTopic starter
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« on: July 18, 2009, 04:59:18 pm »
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Here is an excellent and sought after shiwpreck article. Enjoy!

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« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2009, 11:11:22 pm »
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Here is my version of events regarding the 1715 fleet, based on archival evidence which tells us the fleet was first hit with winds from the northeast, that St Augustine was hit by the same storm and from archaeological evidence, which shows that after the ships were driven onto the nearshore reefs, they broke up to the north and their cargo and remains scattered in that direction.

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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2009, 06:22:48 pm »
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Tom,
Absolutely!
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2009, 06:42:17 pm »
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Taking the 1andonly Madforwrecks info and diagram one step further...

My group recovered an anchor  at 91 degrees out of Sebastion Inlet 15 miles out. It was bent severely at the shank and had hooked on a reef at 72 feet. It bounced back 60 feet to lay on the reef at 92 feet. It would have been trying to hold a ship from taking a direct course to the west. I think at this point, the winds that had initially hit the fleet from the NE were now coming from the East and driving the ships ashore.
Once broken up on the reefs and shoreline, the winds shifted to where they came out of the SE and pushed the battered pieces up the coast, thereby creating what we know as the "Banana Pattern".
This pattern is most evident on the Corrigan's site where the initial hit on the reef was about 1200 feet from the beach, then straight in and curved to the NW along the coastline.
Additionally, I think the Sterncastle sits under the wormrock in Wabasso.
Aquanut

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« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2009, 05:39:30 am »
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My theory :  Draw a line from St Augustin toward the South East . This must have been the track of the hurricane  being that it blew from the South East toward the North West ( toward St Augustin )   Why ? Because at the same time the wrecking took place St Augustin reported a hurricane in the area ( a little later ! ) . If the fleet was in the strait , roughly at the level of Cape Canaveral , the storm would have overtaken them . Coming from the direction of the Bahama's  the top of the storm  ( think  of a circle turning to the left ) would have blown them to the West . As the storm moved further to the West the wind would have shifted, blowing  toward the North West ( coming from the South East ) . This would have been the reason why the ships were first wrecked at the Cape Canaveral coast ( or directly in that area ) . Followed by the wind blowing them to the North West which would wreck them on the coast up to , and even further North from St. Augustin . Previously ( as Chagy remarked ) , so even before they were blown toward the West , the wind came from the North East . ( blowing toward the South West ) . By 4.00 PM the wind veered to the East ( blowing to the West  as I stated above )  . I do not agree with the remark that the wind changed to the North East because if that would have happened they could have sailed free from the Florida coast into deeper water in the Strait and toward the Bahama's . NC BRAD made the remark that : According to Duro , this hurricane , of at least normal intensity , crossed over the seas north of the Province of Oriente , Cuba , and the southern Bahama's , moving in a  west-northwesterly or northwesterly direction . This remark by Duro only makes my thesis more reliable . What is your idea ?    Cornelius

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« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2009, 08:00:13 pm »
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Cornelius,
Not to continue my theory, which is, in essence, the same as yours, also consider that the storm St. Augustine experienced could have been onshore. Aquanut

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« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2009, 08:18:15 pm »
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Aquanut wrote: My group recovered an anchor  at 91 degrees out of Sebastion Inlet 15 miles out. It was bent severely at the shank and had hooked on a reef at 72 feet.

That is really cool to hear, as the archival documents mention several instances of a ship dropping anchor in 12 fathoms of water in order to stop being driven towards the beach.  Tom

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« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2009, 01:55:08 am »
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I agree that the hurricane hit as shown --- there was a total of 11 spanish vessels in the combined "joint"fleet --plus the french vessel griffon * forced to sail with the fleet or stay in port for 2 weeks after they left (for security reasons) --- the griffon survived by breaking away from the fleet as the seas started to get rough when the storm was arroaching --not being as heavily loaded she was able to ditch the rest behind -- and sailed north east close into shore till she got ahead and free of it the ran due east back to breast ,france -- capt dare saved his vessel and the crew lives .

eight vessels from the 1715 fleet in total are wrecked along the zone known as the "12715 fleet treasure coast" area --- all 5 of ubillas vessels and 3 of echeverz vessels --- south to north -- #1  first echeverz's  "dutch prize" known as the "senor de la popa" --- also as the  "san miguel" and also as the "olandesa" (dutch)---- #2 then the  balandea class (fragatta / frigatella) vessel known as the "maria galante" -- ubillas "private " little vessel  bought of of echeverz in cuba (it was a english prize vessel taken by his pataches off of porto bella --echeverz called it "san miguel de excelsis" when he had it . 

#3 is the patche of ubilla fleet the "nieves"

#4 is the urca de lima of ubillas fleet

#5 & 6 -- are the capitina and admiranta of echeverzs fleet

# 7 & 8 are the admiranta and captina of  ubillas fleet

the missing 3 vessels ( the tabacco vessel san miguel --the french prize "el ciervo" hauling logs and and another vessel  are said to have left as having gone on a differant tack the day before the storm stuck them fully according to the pilot major of the fleets testimony  *** --similar to the griffon --- but not as lucky it seems * --they would have been farther north (thus closer to st augustine) when the storm over took them --- salmon stated that " of the missing vesselst here is little doubt that they sank in deep waters because wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the north coast ( coast north?) of st augustine .--

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« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2009, 04:12:50 am »
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Quote:Posted by ivan salis
I agree that the hurricane hit as shown --- there was a total of 11 spanish vessels in the combined "joint"fleet --plus the french vessel griffon * forced to sail with the fleet or stay in port for 2 weeks after they left (for security reasons) --- the griffon survived by breaking away from the fleet as the seas started to get rough when the storm was arroaching --not being as heavily loaded she was able to ditch the rest behind -- and sailed north east close into shore till she got ahead and free of it the ran due east back to breast ,france -- capt dare saved his vessel and the crew lives .

eight vessels from the 1715 fleet in total are wrecked along the zone known as the "12715 fleet treasure coast" area --- all 5 of ubillas vessels and 3 of echeverz vessels --- south to north -- #1  first echeverz's  "dutch prize" known as the "senor de la popa" --- also as the  "san miguel" and also as the "olandesa" (dutch)---- #2 then the  balandea class (fragatta / frigatella) vessel known as the "maria galante" -- ubillas "private " little vessel  bought of of echeverz in cuba (it was a english prize vessel taken by his pataches off of porto bella --echeverz called it "san miguel de excelsis" when he had it . 

#3 is the patche of ubilla fleet the "nieves"

#4 is the urca de lima of ubillas fleet

#5 & 6 -- are the capitina and admiranta of echeverzs fleet

# 7 & 8 are the admiranta and captina of  ubillas fleet

the missing 3 vessels ( the tabacco vessel san miguel --the french prize "el ciervo" hauling logs and and the nao concepcion (all from echeverz's fleet) are said to have gone on a differant (more northerly) tack the day before the storm stuck them fully according to the pilot major of the fleets testimony  *** --similar to the griffon --- but they were not as lucky it seems * --they would have been farther north (thus closer to st augustine) when the storm over took them ( survivors of the conce[coin floated on wreckage before being found washed ashore near the cape )--- salmon stated that " of the 2  missing vessels there is little doubt that they sank in deep waters because wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the north coast ( coast north?) of st augustine .--


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« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2009, 04:18:57 am »
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Quote:Posted by ivan salis
I agree that the hurricane hit as shown --- there was a total of 11 spanish vessels in the combined "joint"fleet --plus the french vessel griffon * forced to sail with the fleet or stay in port for 2 weeks after they left (for security reasons) --- the griffon survived by breaking away from the fleet as the seas started to get rough when the storm was arroaching --not being as heavily loaded she was able to ditch the rest behind -- and sailed north east close into shore till she got ahead and free of it the ran due east back to breast ,france -- capt dare saved his vessel and the crew lives .

eight vessels from the 1715 fleet in total are wrecked along the zone known as the "12715 fleet treasure coast" area --- all 5 of ubillas vessels and 3 of echeverz vessels --- south to north -- #1  first echeverz's  "dutch prize" known as the "senor de la popa" --- also as the  "san miguel" and also as the "olandesa" (dutch)---- #2 then the  balandea class (fragatta / frigatella) vessel known as the "maria galante" -- ubillas "private " little vessel  bought of of echeverz in cuba (it was a english prize vessel taken by his pataches off of porto bella --echeverz called it "san miguel de excelsis" when he had it . 

#3 is the patche of ubilla fleet the "nieves"

#4 is the urca de lima of ubillas fleet

#5 & 6 -- are the capitina and admiranta of echeverzs fleet

# 7 & 8 are the admiranta and captina of  ubillas fleet

the missing 3 vessels ( the tabacco vessel san miguel --the french prize "el ciervo" hauling logs and and the nao concepcion (all from echeverz's fleet) are said to have gone on a differant (more northerly) tack the day before the storm stuck them fully according to the pilot major of the fleets testimony  *** --similar to the griffon --- but they were not as lucky it seems * --they would have been farther north (thus closer to st augustine) when the storm over took them ( survivors of the conce[coin floated on wreckage before being found washed ashore near the cape )--- salmon stated that " of the 2  missing vessels there is little doubt that they sank in deep waters because wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the north coast ( coast north?) of st augustine .--
Quote:Posted by ivan salis
I agree that the hurricane hit as shown --- there was a total of 11 spanish vessels in the combined "joint"fleet --plus the french vessel griffon * forced to sail with the fleet or stay in port for 2 weeks after they left (for security reasons) --- the griffon survived by breaking away from the fleet as the seas started to get rough when the storm was arroaching --not being as heavily loaded she was able to ditch the rest behind -- and sailed north east close into shore till she got ahead and free of it the ran due east back to breast ,france -- capt dare saved his vessel and the crew lives .

eight vessels from the 1715 fleet in total are wrecked along the zone known as the "12715 fleet treasure coast" area --- all 5 of ubillas vessels and 3 of echeverz vessels --- south to north -- #1  first echeverz's  "dutch prize" known as the "senor de la popa" --- also as the  "san miguel" and also as the "olandesa" (dutch)---- #2 then the  balandea class (fragatta / frigatella) vessel known as the "maria galante" -- ubillas "private " little vessel  bought of of echeverz in cuba (it was a english prize vessel taken by his pataches off of porto bella --echeverz called it "san miguel de excelsis" when he had it . 

#3 is the patche of ubilla fleet the "nieves"

#4 is the urca de lima of ubillas fleet

#5 & 6 -- are the capitina and admiranta of echeverzs fleet

# 7 & 8 are the admiranta and captina of  ubillas fleet

the missing 3 vessels ( the tabacco vessel san miguel --the french prize "el ciervo" hauling logs and and another vessel  are said to have left as having gone on a differant tack the day before the storm stuck them fully according to the pilot major of the fleets testimony  *** --similar to the griffon --- but not as lucky it seems * --they would have been farther north (thus closer to st augustine) when the storm over took them --- salmon stated that " of the missing vesselst here is little doubt that they sank in deep waters because wreckage of a large vessel or vessels was found on the north coast ( coast north?) of st augustine .--


I think the major hurricane and its basic effects are as discribed ===now remember however there was a "follow up" storm the next day --- I think this storm ran upwards along and slightly offshore the length of the of the florida coast running south to north.

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