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Offline hardluck
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« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2010, 06:40:55 pm »
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Hello All

I too are engaged in other research projects. I hope some one will have some benefit from the list.

For me the Dutchman and Peralta stories are a little stimulation of my tired old brain matter. In which gives me some pleasure in trying to discover the real story behind the legends. I think it is almost imposable to ever prove the Dutchman mine existed. As there are many mines in the region could be claimed as the Dutchman or Peralta's.

Which could in some respect a good thing. Especially for Apache Junction and Goldfield. the Legends have been a life line to the economies of theses little communities. These towns like many other little towns that have came and gone due economic reasons and changing trend of people seeking better living in the cities.

Strange that the Peralta stones were found around 1947 after World War Two when Thousands of Servicemen were returning home to find work and carve out a new life in many towns that were in some respects dying because of lack of labor due to the war and population drifting to cities for work. And of course the find by a policeman was seen to legitimize the find.

The writing on the stones do not really match the Archaic Spanish of the times. There does not seem to be any carbon build up inside the carved letters to suggest the date it was created in 1847?

However I do believe that the complex stones do lead to mine workings. In fact there has been some excellent work done by some researchers to suggest a location where the map leads to. Interesting enough there is a suggestion the start of map is from two small hills near Apache junction ending up at a location where there are old mine working predating 1900 at least just North of Terrapin Pass. Near Weavers needle.

I think it was all a little too easy for a little town after World war two struggling to survive to cash in on its only real claim to fame. The 1930's discovery of Ruth body and his search for a lost mine that captivated the world. With free advertising like that it was in everybody's interest to keep the legend alive.And there is gold to be made from tourism that Goldfield and Apache Junction have prospered while other small country towns have withered and died.

But getting back to what could of been the real story behind the legends. There is very little evidence has come to light to connect the Perata story and Dutchman story together. The truth may always be lost to history.

As for the Peralta massacre story there In no contemporary reports come to light that a massacre of Peralta ever took place. However the alleged pack saddles discovered over the years could of been from stray miners picked off by bandits or Apaches. There is a suggestion that Miguel Peralta was engaged in mining in the early 1863 and other reports mention him and his brother in around 1870. The forts in the region was founded until around the 1860's. So the Peralta 1847 massacre treasure legend is looking very shaky.

However if you get back to the very early Dutchman mine stories such as Julia Thomas and her friends. None of them were real prospectors. Newspaper reports suggest that they liked to drink a little too much that perhaps clouded there judgment on what Waltz told them. It is easy to see why Julia Thomas and friends went broke looking for the lost mine.It is easy to see when broke the desperation in selling maps any maps to survive.

There is some irony that Julia Thomas and friends may of walked over the very mine Waltz was mining? Some early reports say that Waltz let it slip to a grocer that the mine was west of the Superstitions? Was this truth or another fabrication?

It is interesting to note that a Charles Hall of Denver discovered a Boulder on top of a hill the looked like it was out of place there. He bought the mining lease for a absurd sum of money. But there must of been some method in his madness as he discovered a a timbered shaft below the boulder going down 75 ft. three million dollars was alleged to have been recovered from that mine and it helped to spark the gold rush town of Gold Field. But like all good things they come to an end.

Was this shaft the real mine Waltz was illegally mining? We will never know for sure the Legend of the lost mine has become an iconic to the American People. It is a representation of  American Dream that somewhere out there there is a chance to make it big.

And in some respects that is good thing with thousands tourists visiting the Area each year helping the local economy and living the dream.

Hardluck  Wink

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« Last Edit: January 25, 2010, 06:56:22 pm by hardluck »
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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2010, 08:37:30 am »
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It definitely sparks the imagination.  Smiley Even if you never found the mine a person could have a pretty decent adventure traipsing around out there following clues, provided you take a lot of water and a dang good hat.

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« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2010, 01:33:50 am »
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Newbie here !!! Interesting reading. Never read it this way before.

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« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2010, 04:22:39 am »
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Hello Wayne-o

It is my pleasure. I hope some of these postings help you obtain a more clearer picture of the Treasure legend.

Hardluck  Wink

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« Reply #54 on: February 24, 2010, 10:40:39 pm »
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The Dutchman was a High Grader robbing a claim, and made up the story about having his own mine to cover his thieving ways.  I believe a sample of his gold was later tested to be compatible with a mining company that he worked for at one time. But people still look for it, and last year one more person went missing.

Landshark

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« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2010, 10:41:10 am »
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I wonder if anybody else knows about the history of the lost- Dutchman mine ?

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« Reply #56 on: April 17, 2010, 11:32:43 pm »
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Hardluck,

A lot of great research. Anybody wishing to learn about the Dutchman's Lost Mine would be wise to go through that list. Also to read the books by both Tom Glover and Helen Corbin. Doing so would cut down on posts like Landsharks'

Landshark,

A minimum amount of research would tell you that what you posted is FAR from correct. Electron Dispersal Analysis was performed on the Matchbox that is from the gold ore in the candlebox under Waltz' bed when he died in 1891. Dick Holmes had several pieces of it made into jewelry.

The same testing was done to several samples of gold ore from the area. That Matchbox Ore was not even a CLOSE match to the ore from The Vulture Mine. Without getting too technical, The Vulture, Mammoth, Black Queen, Bull Dog, and Wasp Mines are all Epithermal Quartz Ore, while the samples from the Matchbox, Camp, and Kochera Ores were all Mesothermal Quartz Ores. Not even close. Waltz' Gold could not in any way have come from the Vulture Mine.

While Waltz' Gold Ore Quartz matched a few other types in the Supers, the gangue minerals in the ore matched NO KNOWN GOLD ORE! See, a little knowledge of mining and geology goes a long way here. You can have two gold veins a hundred feet apart and a Scanning Electron Microscope or PIXE (Proton Induced XRay Emissions) Testing can tell you which ore came from which vein with 100% accuracy.

NOPE! The Dutchman's Lost Mine is still lost! Anybody who claims to have found his mine will find it VERY easy to prove.

Best-Mike
Quote:Posted by seldom
Are they some how connected to Peralta of legend, the Californian Peralta family or the Santa Fe? If it is then perhaps Peralta was never killed in any massacre in 1847?

The Peralta of California did not show up till 1776 and have no history of mining, so for now I am going to leave them be. 

The city of Santa Fe was founded by Don Pedro de Peralta, New Mexico's third governor this branch needs more research they were involved in mining.


Seldom,

That is one branch of the same Peralta Family. Luis Peralta went to Cali with Capt. Juan Antonio De Anza in his group in 1776. Working back towards Sonora, Antonio Peralta and his son Miguel stopped in the Bradshaws in about 1864 and found a couple of very rich gold mines. While they are the same family, they are not the Peraltas of the Dutchman Legend.

While most sources put the massacre in 1847 or so, I don't think that is correct. There are several reasons, but the one that first caught my eye was in a letter from Clay Worst to Dr. Erwin Ruth (son of Adolph Ruth) in about 1959. In it, Clay states that through his research, he puts the massacre in 1864 (I think). This, combined with the stories by Apache Jack and Sergeant Benjamin Edwards put a lot of weight to that date.

It wasn't a complete massacre. Some peons and at least one Peralta (Pedro) survived. Also, according to the family history of the Gonzales Family, they were working two or three of the mines that belonged to the Peraltas for a percentage. The Peraltas sent them on ahead, and the Gonzales' were camped on the Gila River at an Indian Village when the Peraltas were massacred. The two families never spoke again.

Best-Mike

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« Last Edit: April 17, 2010, 11:34:20 pm by Gollum »
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« Reply #57 on: April 18, 2010, 10:12:44 am »
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Good research Gollum Smiley

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« Reply #58 on: April 18, 2010, 10:15:16 am »
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Ok Gollum,

Before you take pot shots at me, you could do your own open research. My hypothesis is that he was a High Grader, Your hypothesis is there's a mine. You haven't proved me wrong, or that your right. A wasted post is one that goes after someone else for his belief. This is a discussion forum. I have done my share of placer mining, and lode mining. The only fact I will agree on with you is this is a great story. The last sentence of Occam's Razor greatly describes the research being done on the Lost  Dutchman Mine

Occam's razor is a logical principle attributed to the medieval philosopher  William of Occam (or Ockham). The principle states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. This principle is often called the principle of parsimony. It underlies all scientific modelling and theory building. It admonishes us to choose from a set of otherwise equivalent models of a given phenomenon the simplest one. In any given model, Occam's razor helps us to "shave off" those concepts, variables or constructs that are not really needed to explain the phenomenon. By doing that, developing the model will become much easier, and there is less chance of introducing inconsistencies, ambiguities and redundancies.

Landshark




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« Reply #59 on: April 18, 2010, 11:10:12 am »
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 I will not say with certainty, that The Stone Maps were made by The Peralta Family but I will say that they are authentic. I say this because I have found the secret to solving these stones and I have found the areas that show these marks. I will say that these markers are just as they are on the Stones. There are up to 17 mines, a vault, dwelling area and smelting area. I will also tell you that the areas in question start from near Weaver's Needle and the farthest place is around Brown's peak Mountain range.
 When you look at the Priest and Horse maps, you will see that, when placed next to each other that the wider part of the stones touch, This shows you that these two Maps are across from each other. where you find the priest, you will see the Horse across from it.
 In tme, I will show you all my discoveries.
 I will not say with certainty, that The Stone Maps were made by The Peralta Family but I will say that they are authentic. I say this because I have found the secret to solving these stones and I have found the areas that show these marks. I will say that these markers are just as they are on the Stones. There are up to 17 mines, a vault, dwelling area and smelting area. I will also tell you that the areas in question start from near Weaver's Needle and the farthest place is around Brown's peak Mountain range.
 When you look at the Priest and Horse maps, you will see that, when placed next to each other that the wider part of the stones touch, This shows you that these two Maps are across from each other. where you find the priest, you will see the Horse across from it.
 In tme, I will show you all my discoveries.
 I have a question. Has anyone really looked at the stones to see if they were natural stones or if they were made? I ask this because it looks like they were made, judgeing by the lines and marks that are on the bottom stone of the trail map. It looks like someone made these marks on the stone while it was like a clay, then it was heated to form a rock. I am not saying that these is in fact what was done, but I thought I would bring it up, just in case this was the case.

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