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Offline hardluck
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2010, 12:26:15 am »
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Hello Seldom

One thing that has always intrigued me with the story is knowing what is the actual earliest verifiable source of the story?

Is there any early newspaper versions or early journals mentioning aspects of  the The lost Dutchman story or reports of him finding gold etc...?

The object of the thread is to see what we can come up with the earliest dated version of the story. I am sure there is people out there with some interesting items relating to this story.

And away we go  Grin

Hardluck  Wink

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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2010, 01:06:48 am »
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In 1639 a soldier Pedrp Navarez in the Spanish army deserted and befriended the Apaches. He lived and raided with them against the pack trains carrying gold to Mexico City from the Peraltas mines [Lost Dutchman] for ten years. After his capture in 1649 convicted of treason he was sentenced to death. Pedro made a confession in writing for absolution before he was hung. Many years later his confession surfaced along with a waybill in church records, the waybill told of a mine and large amounts of gold and silver hid in the same area.
If the LD was one of the Peraltas mines which most think it was, this is the earliest record I have came across. Peraltas family records report mines in Arizona as early as 1620 or so but the family recorders are very spotty at best. 

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« Reply #12 on: January 13, 2010, 05:01:44 am »
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Hello All

Sorry Seldom I kind of lost my way with the subject. I hope we can keep the topic on how much supporting evidence is out there to discover the real story behind the legend and not the location of the mine.

 It forced me to do some reading conflicting accounts trying to find the common generic thread. There seems there is a general consensus that the Lost Dutchman mine story and the Peraltas stories are somehow connected?

For me at this stage I prefer keep an open mind on that assumption as yet. I am in trying to find as much for or against the validity of the story. before making any assumptions of the location of the alleged mine or mines.

I am beginning to see many pitfalls in researching this subject as there has been many claims and counter claims on this subject which has buried the truth behind an even bigger amount of legends.

However it seems we will start this topic off at the very beginning of the origins behind the stories.

I have read some where that Francisco Vasquez de Coronado coming north from Mexico in 1540 was one of the first Europeans to set eyes on the area first known as Sierra de la Espuma or range of foam.

Some of Coronado's men disappeared and were later found decapitated. Coranado soon tired of this dangerous area and renamed the region Monte Supersticion and headed northward.

In 1608 one Pedro Peralta de Cordoba was made Governor of Santa Fe. In 1776 it is alleged that his descendants were granted title Baron de Colarado? And the Title included a large area of the Sierra de La Espuma.

It should be noted that some historians claims that some of Peralta land claims was part of a latter land fraud? Is there any truth to those claims?

It was alleged the the Peralta family did not explore further North of the Sierra because they were busy engaged in silver mining until the silver mines became exhausted until the early 19th century.

It was alleged that a  Miguel Parelta found a rich vein on or near Superstition mountain around 1845. It has been claimed that Cochise the Chriica Apaches massacred Miguel Peralta at a site called the Massacre ground in the Superstitions. It was alleged that US Army troops discovered some of the Bodies in 1850?

Now I wonder if there is anyone out able to confirm this discovery with references of old newspaper stories or old army records as such?

The is another old story that two prospectors in the early 1850's found a dead burro with a pack saddle full of gold? do we have any newspaper reports of that discovery?

Some researchers and historian claims there was no such evidence of any massacre?
 
There are some questions that need to be answered to help clarify the stories behind the later Dutchman's discovery.

I am interested in seeing if there is documentary evidence supporting these claims. It will be very interesting to see what files people will share with us helping us find out what is fact and what is fiction or unprovable hearsay?

I await with interest  Huh?

Hardluck  Huh?

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« Reply #13 on: January 13, 2010, 09:35:58 am »
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The only report of the massacre is in the church archives in Monterrey I have been told.

Yes the Dutchman and the Peralta  mine go hand in hand. The Peralta's operated 1 to 7 mines in the area, and the Dutchman is said to have found and worked one of  them.

Tom Penfeild was the first I think that said the Dutchman had not found a mine but a cache of ore hide by the Peralta's . This needs to be looked at hard because if thats the case Dutch's ore might be many miles from any mine.

The is another old story that two prospectors in the early 1850's found a dead burro with a pack saddle full of gold? do we have any newspaper reports of that discovery?
Never heard of that do you know where it took place?
I am going to have my wife contact the archives in Monterrey and see what info they can supply. My wife is Irish born in Texas raised in Mexico City were I meet her the first time while doing research there. She knows the in and outs on how things work there and has a gift of getting info. After we reconnected 23 years ago she got me a roll of micro film and a inch of documents from Spain in 60 days that I had spent 3 years trying to get. So will put her on the Monterrey connection.
 
As hardluck said we going to have to dig though a lot of he said she said to find the true facts

Well we got a project let's get going. 
 

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« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2010, 10:36:58 am »
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Ive often thought it is the name The Lost Dutchman that makes this tale stand out. On the whole there are many many lost mine stories some with assay records to support them that no one ever hears about. The history and adventure of the dutchman story has zing hehe.

Seems I also remember reading of a couple soldiers who later found the mine or cache and were either killed by apaches or one another. I will have to look it up again. Fun stuff.

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« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2010, 10:59:17 am »
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Welcome Jones lots of death associated with the Dutchman the one that stands out is.

In June of 1931, a government employee named Adolph Ruth from Washington, D.C. left for the Superstition foothills with what he claimed was an old Peralta map to the mine. When a search party went to look for him a few days later, his campsite was found to be intact, but Ruth was missing. That December, his skull was found on Black Top Mountain with two holes in it. The rest of his skeleton was found a month later, about three-quarters of a mile away. In his clothing was a cryptic note that read ?About 200 feet across from cave? and ?Veni, Vidi, Vici? (I came, I saw, I conquered). There was no trace of the treasure map. Law enforcement officials attributed his death to sunstroke or suicide

Because news papers of the times  run many story's about it. What interested me about this one is the map were did it come from and were did it go.

There is also a story about the body of a woman found in a cave with gold nuggets. Well try to found so info on that.

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« Reply #16 on: January 13, 2010, 12:49:03 pm »
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Now that you bring it up I recall that quote. Very intriguing isnt it?  Smiley
Found this interesting page with some names dates and possible newspaper references to run down at the Apache Junction Public Library site.

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http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/index.htm


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http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/Origin%20of%20Dutchman%20Mine.pdf


THE ORIGIN OF THE LOST DUTCHMAN MINE STORY
by Tom Kollenborn (c) 1979, 1999
The Superstition Mountain has served as a beacon to the treasure hunters and the curious, attracting them from
around the world. Fortunes have been made and lost in the search for the Dutchman?s Lost Mine, however the mine has
never been found. Some claim the majestic beauty and tranquility of the region is the only treasure man will find in the
Superstition Wilderness Area.
The mine was named after an old prospector mistakenly called the ?Old Dutchman.? Jacob Waltz allegedly
discovered a rich vein of gold in the Superstition Mountain region east of Phoenix.
Hermann Petrasch was probably one of the most persistent seekers of the Jacob Waltz?s gold. You might say
Hermann Petrasch was the ?father of all modern Dutch hunters.? Hermann and his brother Rhinehart began their
search with Julia Thomas in the summer of 1892.
Carl Gottfried Hermann Petrasch was born in Hennersdorf, German on the 24th of April, 1864. Hermann arrived at
the Port of Entry, New York, New York in the spring of 1869. He had left Germany with his father Gottfried when he was
only five years old. Hermann accompanied his father to the town of Whatcom, Washington. Herman?s father traveled
widely throughout the West, first Washington, Montana then Colorado and finally to Arizona. Hermann Petrasch lived in
Arizona almost sixty years and most of those years were spent in and around the Superstition Mountain area. Petrasch
did not apply for United States citizenship until October 1938.
Hermann Petrasch arrived in Arizona shortly after the death of Jacob Waltz, of Lost Dutchman Mine fame, in
October of 1891. He came to Arizona at the request of his brother Rhinehart. He wanted Hermann to assist Julia Thomas
and him in the search for Waltz?s gold mine in the Superstition Mountains. Rhinehart claimed Julia and he had the
clues to locate Waltz?s gold mine.
Rhinehart Petrasch had been residing in Phoenix for some time and helped Julia Thomas with her business.
Some historians believe Rhinehart became a close associate of Jacob Waltz in his final days at Julia Thomas? residence
on West Jackson Street in Phoenix. Rhinehart learned a few meager clues during this period. Waltz mumbled out
several clues during those final days, but most were to Julia and not Rhinehart.
As the end became apparent for the ?Old Dutchman? he called Julia and Rhinehart to his side and gave them the
final clues to his rich gold mine. This would have been fine, but Julia and Rhinehart had been celebrating a bit much
and their minds were a little foggy. This they would later regret when they were wandering aimlessly in the mountains
east of Phoenix.
After the death of ?Old Jake,? Julia and Rhinehart tried to put the pieces together. Their first decision was to find
another partner they could trust. Julia accepted the idea of inviting Rhinehart?s brother Hermann into the partnership.
Hermann was living in Colorado at the time.
Early during the month of August 1892, shortly after Herman?s arrival, the three began the organization of the
expedition. Julia bought a team, wagon, and camping gear. Later they would find out the wagon and team was a mistake.
The group departed from Phoenix on August 11, 1892 with little fanfare. At the close of the first day the party was
camped along the Salt River south of the old Maryville crossing on the river. The second day they traveled eastward
across the desert toward the western facade of Superstition Mountain arriving in the area south of Bull Dog Peak somewhere.
At this point they realized the team and wagon would be useless in the mountains. The abandoned the wagon
and decided to pack the team. The next morning they packed up the horses and started toward the northwestern end of
Superstition Mountain in search of ?La Sombrero.? According to Hermann Petrasch they camped in Needle Canyon just
north of Weaver?s Needle for three weeks. Spirits were high among the three when they began their search, but the
torturous summer heat began to take its toll.
Toward the end of the third week the expedition collapsed from exhaustion, lack of food and water. The search
for the Waltz?s mine was abandoned and three returned to Phoenix defeated and unsuccessful. A local newspaper, the
Arizona Weekly Gazette, noted the expedition with the following excerpt on September 1, 1892, ?A Queer Quest, ?Another
Lost Mine Being Hunted By A Woman.?
This prospecting venture reduced Julia Thomas to financial ruin. She and the Petraschs were in a somewhat
destitute situation with no source of income or a place to reside. Julia soon departed company with the Petraschs and
married a farm laborer named Albert Schaffer on July 26, 1893.
At Schaffer?s encouragement Julia produced maps with what information she could remember. She became
very resourceful and began producing excellent maps illustrating how to locate the lost gold mine of Jacob Waltz.
These fraudulent sheets of paper were probably the first maps to the Dutchman?s Lost Mine.
It is also quite apparent Julia Thomas gave Peirpont C. Bicknell and interview about the Lost Dutchman Mine.
Bicknell chronicled the mine in a San Francisco Chronicle article on January 13, 1895, making reference to most of
Thomas? clues.
The abandonment of the Petraschs by Julia Thomas left them on their own. Rhinehart worked around Phoenix
for a while and eventually moved to Globe. Rhinehart worked as a caretaker at an archaeological ruin in Globe for many
years before committing suicide on February 5, 1943. Rhinehart was known as ?Old Pete? around Globe and Miami.
Hermann had many jobs working for different cattlemen around the Superstition Mountain area. He was an
excellent carpenter and worked at the old Reavis Ranch for the Clemans Cattle Company in the 1930?s. He eventually
settled near the bank of Queen Creek near the Martin Ranch. The Martin?s looked after the old Hermann for many years.
Hermann had a host of friends including my father. Newspaper reporters, authors and magazine writers visited him
from time to time. Many wrote articles about Hermann and his search for the old ?Dutchman?s? mine.
My father and I visited old Hermann Petrasch in October of 1952. He said he was ailing a bit, but was still willing
to talk about the Superstition Mountain and the fabulous Lost Dutchman Mine. Herman passed away on November 23,
1953. The awful irony of the Petrasch-Thomas episode is that their journey into the Superstitions in that blistering hot
August of 1892 had led them directly through the area where the Black Queen and Mammoth mines were discovered
later that year. Julia Thomas and the Petraschs were not successful in finding any gold, but four other men were. It
was in April 1893, after a flash flood the famous Mammoth Mine was discovered. This mine produced two million dollars
in gold bullion when gold was worth twenty dollars a troy ounce. Some believe the Mammoth Mine or Bulldog Mine was
the source of Waltz?s bonanza ore.
The legend continues today.



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Offline BitburgAggie_7377
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« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2010, 01:08:08 pm »
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Anyone looking into the Lost Dutchman or treasures involving the "Peralta Land Grant" in Arizona, should include the following in their research folder:

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http://jeff.scott.tripod.com/baron.html


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http://www.economicexpert.com/a/James:Reavis.html


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http://www.yumasun.com/articles/reavis-4900-land-claim.html


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http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/tuma/hrs/chap7n.htm
     "3The U.S. attorney for the Court of Private Land Claims estimated that claims presented in that court alone totaled 34,053,340 acres of the 77,868,640 acres in New Mexico. According to Bradfutes (1975:5,fn9), however, "The figure must be reduced by about 19,000,000 acres, as it included about 12,000,000 acres for the Peralta claim, located mainly in Arizona, and over 7,000,000 acres for the Conejos, Las Animas, and Corpus Cristi claims in Colorado." The Peralta claim, of course, was a fraud; the eighteen other claims in Arizona amounted to 850,050 acres (Walker and Bufkin 1979). Those figures did not include grants continued by Congress prior to the creation of the court in 1891, such as the Sangre de Cristo (1,000,000 acres) or Maxwell (1,700,000 acres) grants in New Mexico."


I'll leave it to those who are really interested in the Lost Dutchman and the Peralta Grant to sift fact from fiction...but I do think those who want to believe should seriously consider the ramifications of the known fraud associated with the Peralta Grant.

BA





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« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2010, 01:18:52 pm »
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Honestly I believe it was found and mined under another company. Still fun to sift through the stories  Grin
Old Reavis was quite a character!

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« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2010, 01:44:59 pm »
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Yeah, from what I've been able to gather from the little reading I did on him a few months ago, Reavis came really close to have a HUGE chunk of Arizona and New Mexico awarded to him by the courts.

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