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Offline VolNation
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« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2009, 07:19:20 pm »
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Quote:Posted by GoldDigger1950
The Rebs should never have picked that fight. That's all there is to it.

Sorry, but your assumption that the Reb's picked that fight shows a innate misunderstanding of Historical fact. I will agree that many Southerners pushed war, but just as many Northerners did. The Constitution of the United States being the law of the land, true scholars of this document realize that the South was indeed defending its citizens from oppression of their rights under that missive. One could easily say that the North picked a fight rather than trying to change the Constitution via Amendment. Sorry, but that's not " all there is to it".

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« Reply #11 on: October 25, 2009, 07:01:28 pm »
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Quote:Posted by VolNation
Sorry, but your assumption that the Reb's picked that fight shows a innate misunderstanding of Historical fact. I will agree that many Southerners pushed war, but just as many Northerners did. The Constitution of the United States being the law of the land, true scholars of this document realize that the South was indeed defending its citizens from oppression of their rights under that missive. One could easily say that the North picked a fight rather than trying to change the Constitution via Amendment. Sorry, but that's not " all there is to it".


That is not what I said, it is for sure the Cherokee did not pick any fights, and as for history, I have read a lot of it and can easily see there were a lot of wrong takes in the whole thing, I had family in Texas, Missouri, Michigan and Illinois, during the Civil War, on both sides. So I have to take a neutral view which I feel few people do, even yet today. The Cherokee did not get as good a deal as the prisoners in Guantanamo, at least they get 3 squares and a prayer rug.

It was GoldDigger1950 that made the remark about picking fights, so please do not fly off the handle at me. Thank you.

In retrospect, one can find and assign blame anywhere, but why do that? Do some history reading from the Cherokee aspect of the pre, and post Civil War, it might surprise you.

I went back and looked at your posting again and I SEE it was addressed to GoldDigger1950, so I f I yelled you..... sorry.

I am just so used to people mistaking the two of us!

goldigger (little g, one d)

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« Last Edit: October 25, 2009, 07:04:38 pm by goldigger »
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« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2009, 09:10:07 pm »
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Quote:Posted by goldigger
That is not what I said, it is for sure the Cherokee did not pick any fights, and as for history, I have read a lot of it and can easily see there were a lot of wrong takes in the whole thing, I had family in Texas, Missouri, Michigan and Illinois, during the Civil War, on both sides. So I have to take a neutral view which I feel few people do, even yet today. The Cherokee did not get as good a deal as the prisoners in Guantanamo, at least they get 3 squares and a prayer rug.

It was GoldDigger1950 that made the remark about picking fights, so please do not fly off the handle at me. Thank you.

In retrospect, one can find and assign blame anywhere, but why do that? Do some history reading from the Cherokee aspect of the pre, and post Civil War, it might surprise you.

I went back and looked at your posting again and I SEE it was addressed to GoldDigger1950, so I f I yelled you..... sorry.

I am just so used to people mistaking the two of us!

goldigger (little g, one d)

It's OK. you are absolutely right, it is definitely not what you said.  Smiley I am a huge Civil War buff and I am well versed in the history of the proud Cherokee Nation, as I am sure you are. I guess you could say I am a Crockett man, not a Jacksonian. Smiley The actions of the state of Georgia against the Cherokee pre war are well documented. The actions of Tennessee against the Cherokee, Chickasaw, and Creek leading to the Trail of Tears is one of shame. The reality is only one Native American ever held the rank of General, and that was in the Confederate Army. General Watie and the Cherokee allied themselves with the Confederates on a matter of technicality (or so I have read). The Cherokee leadership certainly had no real love for the Southerners, especially after the previous actions of the South prior to the war, but the Confederacy had never broken a treaty with them. The Federal Government had in fact broken every treaty ever written between itself and the Cherokee nation. The tribal leadership accepted the Southern proposal of a large Indian nation comprising half of Arkansas, all of Oklahoma and parts of Northern Texas. Unfortunately they picked the losing side and lost all holdings in Arkansas after the war. Heck, tons of land in Oklahoma as stolen when Oil was discovered. Yeah, a raw deal indeed.

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« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2009, 03:39:07 pm »
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Quote:Posted by VolNation
It's OK. you are absolutely right, it is definitely not what you said.  Smiley I am a huge Civil War buff and I am well versed in the history of the proud Cherokee Nation, as I am sure you are. I guess you could say I am a Crockett man, not a Jacksonian. Smiley The actions of the state of Georgia against the Cherokee pre war are well documented. The actions of Tennessee against the Cherokee, Chickasaw, and Creek leading to the Trail of Tears is one of shame. The reality is only one Native American ever held the rank of General, and that was in the Confederate Army. General Watie and the Cherokee allied themselves with the Confederates on a matter of technicality (or so I have read). The Cherokee leadership certainly had no real love for the Southerners, especially after the previous actions of the South prior to the war, but the Confederacy had never broken a treaty with them. The Federal Government had in fact broken every treaty ever written between itself and the Cherokee nation. The tribal leadership accepted the Southern proposal of a large Indian nation comprising half of Arkansas, all of Oklahoma and parts of Northern Texas. Unfortunately they picked the losing side and lost all holdings in Arkansas after the war. Heck, tons of land in Oklahoma as stolen when Oil was discovered. Yeah, a raw deal indeed.


Interesting! I never heard about the Cherokee general, although the name, Watie, is familiar.... It has been a lot of years since I studied this, when I was looking for any kind of data to do some genealogical searching. It certainly opened my eyes, as to why a certain part of my family tree, acted and spoke, as they did.

The research never resolved anything.... just brought more questions to bear on some of my OTHER ancestors!

For instance, I have a cousin in Texas (another branch of the tree,) that took her family information into court and got a court declaration that she is, indeed, a Cherokee by legal definition. In Canada the status would only be M?tis.

goldigger



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« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2009, 07:14:48 pm »
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I forget what percentage you have to be to receive tribal recognition, but if a court said so it is sorta a moot point right. Look for Stand Watie, the only Native American to attain the rank of General in a American Army. The Confederate Cherokees of the Cherokee rifles under Stand Watie were the last Confederates to surrender.

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« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2009, 04:24:36 pm »
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Quote:Posted by VolNation
I forget what percentage you have to be to receive tribal recognition, but if a court said so it is sorta a moot point right. Look for Stand Watie, the only Native American to attain the rank of General in a American Army. The Confederate Cherokees of the Cherokee rifles under Stand Watie were the last Confederates to surrender.


I will check it out... like I said, I knew the name but never heard of the rank, before.

Something I always found curious, my maternal grandpa,s family had some Cherokee customs such as taking in a poor person, not necessarily related, and calling them cousin. My great grand parents, on that side, had a *cousin,* called Betsy Payton, which they guested... does that name sound familiar to you?

As far as the court would consider, since I have no documented material, unlike my cousin, is that I am M?tis, since without documents, I can self-identify, in Canada. Blood quanta is not legal, in Canada.

She had documents to show her grandfather was full Cherokee and loads of affidavits from Cherokee relatives. While, in my mothers family, it was hidden out of fear over removal, so it became the habit  to deny, deny, deny. Why, did you know, my great grandma was Spanish (or was it Mexican?)  Shocked

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« Last Edit: October 30, 2009, 04:26:09 pm by goldigger »
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2010, 11:49:56 am »
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Hello again, let me say that on both sides of the war, they men and women on both sides were of a tougher nature. On my father's side of the family, I have ancestors that fought on both sides of the civil war. In one case it was brother against brother. And in one part o the family tree, when Alabama succeeded from the Union, a lot of people in Winston county decided not only to succeed from the union, but to succeed from the state of Alabama itself. Hard people indeed.

RT

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