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Offline richaroTopic starter
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« on: May 07, 2010, 02:41:36 am »
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Hi Guys,

As I said some time ago during my introduction, I want to build a Tesoro Bandido 2.
The circuit and the building of the detector itself I think I can manage, however the coils are giving me a hard time  Undecided

How to form the coils is quite clear thanks to all the good topics on this forum.
But how to null is not very clear to me.
I have a oscilloscope and also a signal generator (using soundcard of old pc). But the set-up and the way of working to obtain a good null is mumbojumbo to me....

Can anybody give a clear description on how to do this for both the concentric and the DD coils?
It would be very much appreciated if it would be as clear as possible, so the set-up of the meters, coil etc. and also the handlings that need to be done to obtain the best null.

Thanks in advance and I wish everybody a good weekend.
Richard


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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2010, 02:38:41 pm »
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You don't "null" a coil all by itself. The coil is part of a much larger circuit and the entire circuit must be tuned, not nulled.

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Offline richaroTopic starter
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« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2010, 03:26:23 pm »
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Hello GoldDigger,

Thank you for your response.

In that case I think I did not quite understand what is needed. I understood that the coil itself had to be tuned in such a way that the total response had a very low peak to peak voltage. This confused me as I did not know how to measure this.

If I understand correctly what you are saying is that after the metal detector circuit is build and a coil is formed the total system needs to be tuned in such a way that the response of the receiver coil gives a very low signal if there is no metal in the vicinity of the coil.
Is this correct?

Typically what level should be obtained? <10mV?

Looking forward to your (or others) reply.

Kind regards from a newby that has a lot to learn  Undecided





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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2010, 03:44:34 pm »
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The coil does need to be installed on the detector but first it should be designed with the detector itself in mind. Let's say you want to replace a 6 inch coil with a larger one. You first have to know the makeup of that coil. Is it concentric? Double D? Coplanar? Is it a monocoil? Once you know this, you have to measure the parameters of the coil. Let's assume it's 10uh or 10 Microhenry. You must design your coil to the same inductance value. The coil diameter and the end value are plugged into the formula and the wire size and number of turns can then be estimated. When you wind the coil, measure the result before you install it for the best result. In most cases, close is good enough because there are other factors involved in the full circuit functionality.

The coil is part of an oscillator circuit when it is used for transmitting. It doubles as a transmitting antenna. As such, the tuning will be for maximum field generation. This sometimes means replacing a capacitor or adjusting one, if it is variable. That's half of the tuning process. As to what value or voltage to expect? The answer is the maximum, whatever that is. Some technicians like to watch the receiver for the transmitter maximum. Sound confusing? Well, the only way to sense field strength is with a matching receiver and the closest one is the detector's own receiver circuitry.

Which leads me to the second factor in tuning. Your receiver must be tuned on the front end (the coil side) for maximum resonance with the frequency of oscillation. Again, it is sadly not just "measure the voltage here and it should be X volts." You have to adjust for maximum receiver response without swamping the circuitry. You also have to adjust it for a response in the air with no target present and again with a metal target. The multitude of detector types make this impossible to describe in any detail beyond saying it must be adjusted or tuned.

In actual practice, you will be going back and forth between transmitter adjustment and receiver adjustment until you get it right.

Some detector coils are clever beasts. In the connector itself, which may be a multipin device, jumper wires reconfigure the detector for different sized coils which have markedly different parameters. If your machine does that, all bets are off.

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« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2010, 04:50:36 pm »
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GD.....darn your good---I actually understood a good deal of that (and you know how technical I ain't)

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« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2010, 04:10:30 am »
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Quote:Posted by BitburgAggie_7377
GD.....darn your good---I actually understood a good deal of that (and you know how technical I ain't)


Run away screaming! This may be the end as you know it! Your innocence is at stake, mate!

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Offline richaroTopic starter
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« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2010, 07:04:08 am »
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Hi GD,

Thanks a lot for the further explanation!
I think I understand what to do now.
I will try it and if I have any further questions I will post them later.

Thanks for taking the time to help a newbie!

Kind regards
Richard

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« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 08:17:42 am »
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I would like to supplement GoldDiggers description with a bit more information about nulling.

The principle of a VLF detector is that when an alternating current flows in the transmitting coil (Tx) is it will radiate a magnetic field that will energise the target. In turn, the target will then re-radiate its own magnetic field. Depending on the type of metal in the target, the two fields will vary in phase. The receive coil (Rx) is intended to pick up only the target?s field. By comparing its phase with the transmitted one, the target can be identified. That?s the theory anyway. But with the TX and Rx coils in such close proximity, the Tx coil will also induce a signal directly into the Rx coil and it is that induced signal that needs to be nulled out. If not, the combination of the two fields could overload the receiver preamplifier.

So how do we null it out? Well, if both coils were placed one above the other a clockwise current in the TX current would induce a clockwise current in the RX coil because the magnetic lines of force would be travelling  down through the middle of both coils. But if the two coils were placed side by side the RX coil current would be reversed. That is because the lines of force go down through the Tx coil and back up through the RX coil. What we need is a critical combination of those states so the two opposite currents cancel each other out. With a double D this is done by laying the coils side by side then gradually overlapping them until the signal picked up is zero ? or as low as possible.

You can most easily do this when the detector is finished because you will have the Tx coil fired up and the receiver running, but if you want to do it at the construction stage, then apply a frequency of about 5kHz across the ends of the Tx coil and measure the response between the ends of the Rx coil with a scope.


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« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2010, 08:31:26 am »
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Hi Pebe,

Thank you very much for the further clarification!
It gives me some more background and also a way to null the coil without having the circuitery finished. Now I also understand why I sometimes read about nulling a DD coil without the circuit connected.

Kind regards
Richard

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