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Offline Ridge RunnerTopic starter
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« on: September 16, 2016, 02:34:25 pm »
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G'day Folks.

This past month I have Bought 4 Whites coils and I have been testing them Doing Air Tests and IN Ground tests and I think a lot of folks look at coils the wrong way, In the past people have come to rely on DD's swearing that in ground that reads from the mid 50 to the mid 60s that they have to have a DD when this is not the case,

There are a few things that I have found out, As I have said before some of Whites concentric coils will lower the ground balance setting by a fair margin and because of their small foot print you can get away with using them in hot ground,

This past month I bought the 6x10 (5x9) Eclipse DD and the 4x6 DD Shooter and the 5.3 (6 inch) Eclipse round Concentric and today I got the X pattern 950 Eclipse Concentric, When I compared the 6x10 to the standard 10"DD in and air test on coins it looses about 2 to 2.5 inches to the 10" DD, and on bits of lead weighing 0.02 grams they were both equal, The 4x6 shooter looses about 4 to 5 inches in the Air to the 10" DD on Coins but see's the 0.02gram bit at the same distance, Now I have never understood what all the fuss was about with that 4x6 because a heck of a lot of people use them, but I have always thought of it as a Dog of a thing,

Anyways, had to order another set of Scales because I need some that had a 5 1/2 digit read out because although I already have 3 sets and one set being worth about $1400.00 they still did not go down low enough, Having read GSA's story about the MXT and the 5.3 coil I thought I would give it a another try because I have always had a 5.3 up until about 4 years ago. And I have to admit is what GSA say about that setup is 100% correct and then some.

So now it was time to start testing the 5.3 (6") concentric, This is where things really made a difference, Once fitted to the MXT A/P ( All Pro ) I cranked up the gain (As Before) and now the MXT is seeing bits well into GMT, GB II and GR Territory on Very Tiny bits and on a US Quarter it see's them at the same distance as the 10" DD depending what mode I use, So after some head scratching I thought I would take the whole setup out side and see what faint targets I could find,

The builders replaced the Lead on the roof and from around the windows here about 2 years ago, So you can imagine what I found, Anyways I got this soft target come through the head phones after about 30 minutes and when I worked out exactly where it was it then took me another 20 minutes on my hands and knees to find It with a 10x power magnifying glass, So once I had it safe it was back indoors to clean it and weight it, It turns out to be the Tiniest piece of metal/Lead I have ever found with a VLF as in the VLF range Not LF machine,

As some of you know I made my GMT as hot as the GB II if not more so just by adding the GM II coil to it and That also lowered the GB setting too, So that was another bonus, and it is a lot hotter than the 4x6 shooter when fitted on the GMT and it see's Extremely tiny targets at 3 X the distance that the Factory Twin "D" coil does. As in bits that can't be weighed the size of a piece of Glitter,

Anyway back to the MXT A/P and the 5.3 Coil, That bit I found was about 3/4" Deep in the ground, so I got out the new scales and calibrated them to make sure they were spot On

AND.... It weighed 0.00019 ozt, or 0.0925 grains, or 0.006 grams.

Now in my books that is pretty good going for a VLF regardless of the brand, And in the Air that coil can see a bit weighing 0.010 grams at about 2 to 3 inches depending on the EMI.

If you happen to own an MXT then the 5.3 coil has many other uses and it can hit coins in to the 7 to 10" inch range In the Ground and it is a real Gem in junk filled ground, truly I think that the 4x6 is a dog of a thing in comparison But it could be the perfect Coil if Whites made it in to a Concentric Coil which would make it extremely hot on Gold weighing less than 0.09 Grains in to Pan sized Gold,

And another thing about the 10" DD and the 950 coils,,, we always see people testing two such coils comparing them together, and folks complain that the 950 is not a fair comparison because it is a concentric, well these two coils break the rules, because the 950 will see 0.03 bits at about 3 to 4" inches where as the 10" DD will see them at about 2 to 3" max depending on the EMI,, Yet once the Items get up around 1.00gm they start to become equal and when they get up to 1.89 gram they are equal and then after that the 10" DD starts to pull away ever so slightly and as things get larger the 10" DD begins to Rule the roost, So what ever Whites did to that 10" DD it is really not normal and it breaks all the rules. Which is a bonus for Prospecting because of the hot ground etc,

I Air tested these 1.00 gram and 1.89 gram pieces and they were really out there a person would be happy to get half that distance in hot ground.


One thing I need to add is on a thin flat piece weighing 0.05 it see's it at 15 to 16 cm's an on 0.17 grams it see's them up to 20 cm's, So the flatter ones it see's a lot further in the Air, even sitting on the ground/Dirt which is yellow clay with blue clay/ black sand mixed in.

It is a well know fact that Concentric Coils of equal size have more depth than DD's and Air Test around 2 to 4 inches deeper and knowing this was the reason behind buying the 950 Coil, The 950 is a lot more sensitive to tiny items but on coin sized items and nuggets over a certain size the 10" DD pulls ahead and although this is not the result I was looking for, It has an up side to it in that I have the Depth of the Concentric but in a DD format which is good where the ground starts to heat up.

When I tested the 12" Concentric, I found that it had a 2 to 3 inches depth increase compared to the 950 Coil and the 950 will pull Coins from between 11 to 13 inches where 10 to 12" in a common occurrence, And I have actually seen the 12" Coil pull coins from a measured 13 and a half inches with the Gain set on 6.5 to 6.7. The 12" Should add another 1 to 3 inches over the 10" DD although some of that will be lost in the ground.

The 10"DD can see your bare hand between 4 to 6 inches and Air Tests on larger targets at huge distances, So even if it losses 50% of that depth in the ground then it is still going to be very deep, And using this Coil In the Prospecting Mode will give even the best PI's a run for there money and in normal Ground the 12" Concentric will without a doubt.

The 6x10 Eclipse Coil is a nice Coil but it looses about 1.5 to 2 inches In Air when compared to the 10" DD using a US Quarter and on UK coins that can hit them a bit deeper. It is a good Coil for poking around it the woods and rocky places, But because of the depth difference between it and other Coils I tend not to use the 6x10 and when I do it is only when detecting in tight places, But it is still a great Coil and it was seeing what the 6x10 and the MXT can do that made me want an MXT in the first place and they are an impressive pair.

In all the years that I have been using and testing the MXT's I have never owned the 4x6 Shooter Coil, to me it always seemed stupidly small and is equal to a 5" round DD, Anyway I caved in and about one this past month and every thing I thought about it has come true, It lacks depth and covers very little ground and it has the same sensitivity of all the other DD's, So for Prospecting it offers Nothing apart from being able to fit in tight places and for a Coils so small it is quite solid weighing 398.99 grams which does not sound like much but for it's size out of all the Coils it really feels like a Brick in your hand, and when it comes to nuggets, what the 4x6 see's at 1 inch the 5.3 will see at 3 inches and on a US Quarter it looses a good few inches,

When it comes to the 5.3 (6") Concentric Coil, it has the depth in most cases that rivals the 6x10 DD Eclipse and again on tiny bits, what the 6x10 see's at 1 inch the 5.3 will see at 3 inches and it can see bits a lot smaller down to the size of a grain of Sugar and then some and I have No Doubts that it will see bits half the size I have listed and no doubt before long I will attempt to find out how small it will go,

One Coil I have owned and never took to is the 8x14, people claim it is heavy and prefer to use after market coils when it comes to coils of this size, Last year I bought one of the Whites 8x14 Sierra Max Concentric Coils second hand from the US Which was made for the GMT/ Goldmaster series, They don't make them anymore and I think that they have just stopped making the DD versions for the GMT and the MXT series.

Knowing what a huge difference the GM II Longscan Coil made to my GMT, I decided to buy the 8x14 Sierra Max and to my shock it was not as hot as the standard GMT Twin "D" Coil and I was expecting huge depth increases, But to be honest even in Air tests I could not see any difference on normal sized Items, The Concentric Sierra Max Coil is White in colour where as the DD versions for the GMT and the MXTs are Black,

It is common knowledge that larger Coils loose sensitivity to small Items but that is not always the case as I found out when I bought the 15" Concentric MXT Max Coil, It will easily find things 3 or 4 feet deep and no doubt it will go a lot deeper, But at the other end of the scale it can see bits smaller than 0.02grams. The only down side to it is it weighs 1047.78 grams including the lead and the plug, To say it has depth is an understatement, heaven forbid if it ever locks on to a big/large target at depth.

All the coils have some really good merits except the 4x6 and the 8x14 and the only time I would use the 4x6 is in tight spaces and the 8x14 seems to draw a blank with me.

A simple test is to use a quarter and Air test it in the default relic mode and measure it at the same time and then press the music notes button once and then do the Air Test it again and run it as hot as to can and you will see that the depth increase signal will be huge, It will bleep at a certain distance and then you will get an all metal sound, That mode is Called Mixed Mode and the words will appear on the screen, that is why you are missing nuggets and the hotter you can run it the better, So Items that are within the Disc range will Bleep and Iron will give a low tone, those Targets that are deeper will give an All Metal Tone and depending where you set the Gain it will do that all the way out to 19 to 21 inches depending on the EMI.

In that mode the Disc control has no effect but Iron will still give a low tone, So what you end up with is like the prospecting mode with the ability to Disc out Junk, And when you use it set up like that you should use it and listen for the same signal as you do with your GPX because it turns your MXT in to a VLF version of the GPX and you will blow the doors off any other detector using it like that, If you want to find Gold with it in the Relic mode that is the way to do it, So what you are getting is a high Bleep for wanted targets and a low tone for Iron for targets that are within Disc range and what is known as the 3rd Tone which tells you there is a target down deep beyond the range of the Disc, and remember forget the Disc knob because it has no effect but most of the junk will be gone,

If you want to find the Tiny Gold below 1 grain you want to turn the Gain way up high and set your threshold so you can only just hear it so it is almost like a whisper So the soft signals still come through,

My Latest Hot Coil is the Discontinued Detech 14X10 DD Excelerator EQ 2 Pro, After the first day with it I was that Impressed I ordered another one

It only weighs 4.7 grams heavier than the standard 10" dd 2D coil including the cable and the plug and the Skid Plate,

The one for the MXT all up Weighs 675.8 grams or 23.838 oz and it just Glides across the ground even though it weights 4.7 grams heavier it actually feels lighter, It seems to reach right out there because was using it today and it was picking up my pick 5 feet away, I kept hearing this noise and I thought it was a sudden attack of EMI til I realized what was going on,, This is going to become my everyday Coil.

Hope this helps.






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« Last Edit: November 02, 2016, 06:26:38 pm by Ridge Runner »
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2016, 04:02:25 pm »
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Some people have all the fun.  :Smiley   :Smiley   :Smiley 
Well done RR Smiley

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« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 04:03:08 pm by nickel_n »
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2016, 04:23:29 pm »
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Thanks Mate, here is some more just to give folks an Idea of coil weight etc but remember that you can buy 2 of the same coil and they can weigh as much as 17 grams lighter or heavier as I found out this week Due to only having a latter model plug fitted from the factory,

HH.

Every time a Company releases a new Detector one of the first comments that gets Voiced is the "W" word ( WEIGHT ). The weight of machines is turning many people away from brands that they know and Love and even people who have helped to launch certain machines have turned away because as new factory coils come out the weight seems to rise at an alarming rate , In one respect that annoys me because the machines that helped put some people on the map no longer get a second look and those people are Valued in the detecting world and if companies don't listen then it is no wonder why such revered people jump ship,

 Having just bought a new Coil, I decided to weigh all the Coils I have for my MXT A/P and a couple of others and what I found was a bit of a shock, because although the folks complaining about the weight of the machines is only part of it, The Biggest Offending part of the machine appears to be the Coils by a huge margin and the weights that have been Quoted are All Wrong And the weights of these Coils could make a Huge difference if They actually weighed what the Companies Claim, Because In some of these cases I am sure the factory is/are weighing just the Coil Housings and Not the Complete Coil as In The Coil + the Cable and Plug Plus the Coil Cover / Skid Plate, And the reason I think all these 3 or 4 parts should be included in the Quoted Weights is because when we use them we have to Swing the Whole lot at Once and they become Part of the overall weight of the Detector,

 So I am going to compile a list here of my favourite Coils with Quoted Figures, Actual Figures and the Differences ALONG with the difference in weight between Factory DD's and Concentric's, Now this is in no way a Bitching session or a Dig at Whites Because I love their Coils and I Love Their Machines, PERIOD. ok.

 Coil Model,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Factory Weight,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Actual Weight,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Difference.

 5.3 / 6" Concentric..............................14.4 / 408.23 gms .................................14.715oz / 417.2 gms.................................0.315oz / 8.93 gram,,,, because of sealing tape ? heavier

 4x6" Shooter DD.................................12.8oz / 362.82 gms................................12.535oz / 355.3 gms................................-0.265 oz / -6.7 gms lighter

 6x10 Eclipse DD,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,........N / A................................................18.615oz / 527.72 gms...........................................N / A

 6x10 Twin D 50khz.............................16oz / 453.59 gms................................... 18.15oz / 514.54 gms................................+2.148oz / +60.91 gms heavier

 6x10 GM II Longscan Concentric,,,,,,,,........N / A................................................14.61oz / 414.3 gms...........................................N / A

 950 Eclipse X type Concentric...........18.4oz / 521.63 gms.................................20.617oz / 593.00 gms...............................+2.517oz / +71.37 gms heavier

 10" D2/ MXT A/P DD...........................17.9oz / 507.45 gms................................23.670oz / 671.10 gms................................+5.77oz / +163.57 gms heavier

 950 Blue Max 6.59khz Blue Box 5900........N / A................................................18.931oz / 536.70 gms.........................................N / A

 14x8 Gold Max 50 kHz Concentric..............N / A.................................................26.495oz / 751.10 gms........................................N / A

 15" MXT Max Concentric,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,36oz / 1020.58 gms ................................37.02oz / 1049.6 gms..............................+1.02oz / +29.02 gms heavier

 NON Whites

 14x10 Detech Excelerator Pro 2 DD............N / A.................................................23.838oz / 675.8 gms.......................................N / A

 NOW what started this is because I I could not understand why my MXT just did not feel right, Baring in mind I use to use the 12".300 Coil and then went to the old Eclipse (Flat) 950 Coil which was lighter than the New X-Type version and lighter than the Blue Max (6.59 kHz) 950 Coil,

 I was happy with the MXT's 10" D2 coil but something kept bugging me and then I thought about the old 950, So with that I ordered the New Model and it was just not the same, Also I expected the 950 to have the depth edge over the 10" DD and that did not happen because the 10" DD is such a great Coil that it tests better than the 950 So that old tail about Concentric have the edge is a thing of the past when it comes to depth and the only area where the 950 / Concentrics Excel is when it comes to Sensitivity to tiny Items, because what the DD will see at 1" the Concentric will see at 3" But what annoys me about these coils is why have they re-Bodied 950s gained the extra weight.

 Another thing to note is how much lighter the 6x10 Eclipse (15 kHz) DD is @ 18.615oz / 527.70 grams when you compare it to the Detech 14x10 DD @ 23.838oz / 675.80 gms the 6x10 Eclipse is 5.223oz / 148.10gms lighter than the 14x10" Detech DD, And when this extra weight is compared it to the factory 10" The 14x10 is Only, 0.168oz / 4.7 grams heavier

 Another story from the past is how people love the Older Goldmasters and talk about how small the Gold was that they could see, Well after listening to many Stories and along with folks talking about the GB II I realized that the reason the older Goldmasters were so hot on small Gold was because like the GB II they use to run The Gold Master Longscan Coils which were / are Concentric Coils, So With the Help of Steve H he gave me a link to US Ebay and I ordered one that was Brand New Never Been used that had been sitting in a Shop somewhere and So I bid on it and Won,

 The Coil Arrived and I was quick to try it out and low and behold it trans formed my GMT in to a GB II, Now what the Twin D coil could see at an Inch the Longscan coil can see at 3", Now the Test piece weighs less than 0.0001 oz OR 0.001 grams Which makes it impossible to weigh it, And I have bought another set of scales that still do not go down low enough even with 4 digits past the decimal point.

 So after all that I weighed the GMT Twin D coil and it weighs 18.15oz / 514.54 grams and the GM II Longscan Concentric weighs 14.61oz / 414.3 grams So the Longscan coil is 3.54oz / 100.24 grams lighter than the GMT's Twin D Coil.

 Oh and that big 14x10 has balanced my MXT and given it a Boost and all it added over the standard coil is 0.168oz or 4.7 grams but for some reason it feels better to swing, The depth increase is well worth the 4.7 grams extra, Oh and although the 14X10 is discontinued it is still available at a cost of £99.99 or $175.00 AUD or $132.00 USD.

 HH.

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« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 08:55:59 am by Ridge Runner »
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2016, 05:12:41 pm »
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   Who's going to DIG and spend 30 minutes finding a 0.001 grams bit of gold when you can pan that much in minutes ?

No Me !   LOL

I still want a GB II for bed rock.



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« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2016, 05:23:55 pm »
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Quote:Posted by homefire
   Who's going to DIG and spend 30 minutes finding a 0.001 grams bit of gold when you can pan that much in minutes ?

No Me !   LOL

I still want a GB II for bed rock.




at $42.11 per gram at the moment i'll take it all, My GMT is better because it can use DD's or Concentrics where as the GB II only has concentric and it is not as deep and gets noisy as the mineralization goes up,  I was thinking about buying a GB II but the Makro Gold Racer is the better machine because it has Full Discrimination and they make DD's and Concentrics from 4" to 15"+ inches and it works well in hot ground

Personally I love my GMT because it does it all without the fuss and the parts interchange with most of Whites models IE Battery packs and Shafts etc.

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« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2016, 06:41:26 pm »
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Thanks for the info RR , just about covers all bases , plenty to contemplate ..cheers Mick

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« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2016, 07:09:36 pm »
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Quote:Posted by au fever
Thanks for the info RR , just about covers all bases , plenty to contemplate ..cheers Mick


Ya welcome mate, I have been meaning to put it all together as one piece, as It is hard to find the facts and figures.

One thing I may of forgot to mention, Is my Scales go down to 0.0001 ozt or 0.001 grams yet the test piece I used for the GMT Coils can not be weighed because my Scales do not go down low enough, But with the Twin D (GMT) Coil it see's it at about an inch, With the GM II Longscan Concentric coil it can see it at about 2 to 3 inches, So then I though I would Try that test bit with the MXT using the 5,3 (6") concentric coil and it managed to see it at about 1/4" of an inch to 3/8" of an inch ( About 10mm) which is pretty damn hot for a machine that runs at 13.889 kHz.

HH.

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« Last Edit: September 16, 2016, 07:28:25 pm by Ridge Runner »
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2016, 03:23:31 am »
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Quote:Posted by homefire
   Who's going to DIG and spend 30 minutes finding a 0.001 grams bit of gold when you can pan that much in minutes ?
No Me !   LOL

You are not wrong.
the pieces that they get with the new $10K gold detectors we used to get them with a $10.00 pan.
They call them "nuggets"
we use to call them rattlers. they make rattling noise when you shook them in the bottle.



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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2016, 06:51:02 am »
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Due to mineralization some of the sensitivity will be lost to those extremely small bits/items so the target size will vary depending on ground conditions and Any Gold is Good Gold.

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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2016, 09:02:11 am »
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  That Makro Gold looks like a heck of a machine but I think I would be more comfortable buying American.

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