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Offline LucTopic starter
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« Reply #10 on: June 03, 2010, 02:00:30 am »
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Happy Hunting Idaho Jones, you have more opportunity than I to carry out your investigation because you are in the countries concerned by these events. Good luck maybe people living nearby and listed on this site have information on this subject. Huh?

Luc

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« Reply #11 on: June 03, 2010, 07:33:23 am »
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Thanks Luc. Smiley

Missouri is a good way away from me though. I was hoping perhaps someone from that area might have a little info to share?



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« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2010, 10:44:50 am »
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Hi everyone! I've been thinking about this for awhile and couldn't the date in the tale be wrong? This area wasn't just 'no man's land' as the French had explored it and had permanent settlements in the mid 1700s. Sue

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Offline LucTopic starter
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« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2010, 03:17:30 am »
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SUE thank you for this information

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« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2010, 11:18:37 pm »
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That's a very good point Sue, 1775 is awfully late for spanish expeditions isn't it? It might be interesting to dig a little into the history of occupation. A simple question that comes to my mind is why would there be a large treasure shipment in that area? Were there any significant mining operations that far east? Perhaps some of the salvaged treasure from one of the hurricane wrecked plate fleets was being moved to a western gulf port? Doesn't really make sense since they had Florida ports. Just trying to come up with a reason for it to be here. Any ideas?

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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2010, 12:02:35 am »
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Hello All

Some real interesting observations here.

I have an early alleged map of early french explorations. But fear it may be too far to the north?

However I hope some one will correct me on this?

Hardluck.

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Offline LucTopic starter
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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2010, 01:34:59 am »
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Hi Hardluck,

Thanks for your map.

All the best

 Great Luc

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« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2010, 01:47:03 am »
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Hello Luc

Your more than Welcome. Just with the map.

There is academic debate on the authenticy of the map. As far as I know one group of academics believe the map is a fake and others believe it is authentic.

I cannot recall the exact date of the map. I think it was late 18th century?

hardluck.

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Offline LucTopic starter
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« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2010, 03:22:53 am »
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Hi all

I found some more map draw by a Jesuit Jacques Marquette.

Historic1

Jacques Marquette was born in Laon, France. He became a Jesuit priest, and, at his own request, was sent to New France in 1666 where he studied Native American languages under a missionary at Trois Rivi?res. In 1668 he was sent as a missionary to the Ottawa, spent a winter at Sault Ste Marie, and in 1669 reached La Pointe mission on Chequamegon Bay near the western end of Lake Superior. Marquette accompanied the Ottawa and Huron as they fled from Sioux attacks to the Straits of Mackinac (between Lake Michigan and Lake Huron) and founded a new mission on Point St. Ignace.

Rumors had been heard about a large river in the south (the Mississippi), and the French hoped that this river would lead them to the Pacific Ocean. Marquette was appointed by Frontenac, governor of New France, to accompany Louis Joliet as chaplain and missionary on an expedition to find this river. In 1673 Joliet, Marquette and five other men began their expedition by following Lake Michigan to Green Bay. Here they canoed up the Fox River, crossed over to the Wisconsin and followed that river downstream to the Mississippi. The first Native Americans they encountered were the Illini, who were very friendly to the expedition and presented them with a peace pipe to use for the remainder of the journey.

The further the expedition went, the more convinced they became that the Mississippi flowed into the Gulf of Mexico and not the Pacific as they had hoped. As they approached the Arkansas River they were told by friendly local tribes that the sea was only ten days away and that the French would encounter hostile tribes. They also noticed the presence of Spanish trade goods among the friendly Native Americans and not wanting to be captured by either tribes hostile to the French or by the Spanish, the expedition decided to return north. The Illini tribe showed them an easier route to Lake Michigan which was to travel up the Illinois River and cross over to the Chicago River .

After his return from the Mississippi expedition, Marquette stayed at Mackinac, recovering his health and writing a journal of the voyage, which was first published in Th??venot's Recueil de voyages in 1681. In late 1674, Marquette decided to return to the Illini tribes to preach and found a mission. He arrived around  Easter in 1675, but because his health was deteriorating, he decided to return north to Mackinac. He died of dysentery on the trip back. In 1677, Marquette's body was moved to St. Ignace.

Historic2

On June 17, 1673, two canoes glided out of the Wisconsin River and into the Mississippi. They bore seven Frenchmen and their provisions for a summer of exploration. Louis Joliet commanded the expedition with a Jesuit companion, Jacques Marquette, as spiritual leader. They were the first Europeans to leave any record of exploring the Mississippi River.

Fr. Jacques Marquette drew this map after his summer of exploration in 1673 with Louis Joliet. Fr. Marquette was the first Jesuit to explore what eventually became the Chicago Province.

For a month they moved south, winding with the river's course, racing as the stream picked up volume from the Missouri or the Ohio, drifting as it broadened over surrounding plains. Curious about every detail of the land, they made notes about animals and plants and geographic features. And they greeted and exchanged gifts with the friendly native peoples they met along the way. Reversing their course on July 17, they paddled upstream, took the Illinois River northeast, and reached the Jesuit mission St. Francois-Xavier on Green Bay in late September.

In those days there were no maps, let alone the boundary lines that later generations would draw on maps. There was an enthusiasm for exploration and conversion that later generations might question. And there was wonder about the vast, unspoiled beauty of God's creation that later generations would envy.

Early History
Marquette was not the first Jesuit in what we call the Midwest. French Jesuits were already established at St. Ignace (in today's Michigan) and at the mission of St. Francois-Xavier (in today's Wisconsin). But Marquette was the first Jesuit to explore that part of the Midwest that in the Jesuit administrative structure is the Chicago Province, which comprises all of Indiana and Kentucky, the northern and eastern three-fourths of Illinois, and the archdiocese of Cincinnati in Ohio.

The year after his trip on the Mississippi, Marquette went back to work with the Illinois peoples. Plagued by bad health and unable to travel, he spent the winter (1674-75) with two French companions in what is now Chicago. His journal entry for the day he arrived in Chicago, December 4, rings very true: "more snow there than elsewhere."
Holy Family Church, built in 1860, is the oldest building in the Chicago Province. The church's first pastor, Fr. Arnold Damen, SJ, founded St. Ignatius High School next to Holy Family on Chicago's near west side; from that institution grew Loyola University and Loyola Academy.

In the spring, Marquette was able to preach and visit with the Illinois, but his health deteriorated. His two French companions paddled him along Indiana and Michigan shores of Lake Michigan hoping to get him to St. Ignace, but he died on May 18, probably near the mouth of the river that now bears his name, the Pere Marquette.

 Is Marquette?s Map a Hoax?

Father Jacques Marquette was a 17th-century priest and explorer. He accompanied Louis Jolliet on an expedition into the midwest in 1673 where they became the first Europeans to see the Mississippi River. Unfortunately most of the records of this expedition were lost on the return journey on account of an overturned canoe. But not all the records. In 1844 a map, apparently drawn by Marquette, was found hidden away in the archive at College Sainte-Marie in Montreal. This map was immediately recognized as "the earliest map of the American Midwest and the best proof of the 1673 discovery of the Mississippi River by two French-Canadian explorers." But is the map real? Some don't think so, particularly Carl Weber, a history professor at DeVry University. Weber argues that the Jesuits "determined to assert the primacy of the religious order's role in the exploration of North America, probably concocted the map to bolster Marquette's place in history." As evidence he points out that 1) it's undeniable that the map "emerged all of a sudden out of nowhere in the middle of the 1800s." That alone makes it suspicious. But also 2) it's far more accurate than one would expect for a map drawn in 1673. DeVry Weber says: "Well over a century of map production never achieved a roughly approximate contour of the Illinois River until it appeared on a map in 1813, Map of the United States, prepared by John Melish." Isabelle Contant, a director of the Archives of the Company of Jesus in St-Jerome, defends the map's authenticity, noting that experts have positively identified Marquette's cursive writing on the map. Sounds like we need Gil Grissom and his CSI team to get to the bottom of this debate. For more info, check out this Canada.com article about the controversy, as well as DeVry's Weber's website: The Marquette Map Hoax.
Luc Great

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« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2010, 03:57:34 am »
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Hello All

Thanks Luc for the Clarification.

You know it would be fairly simple to prove either way by testing to see the type of paper or material that the map was written on was 17th century and not a 19th century fake.

At least we could verify the date of the document. The ink can be tested also.

Very interesting indeed.

Hardluck.

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