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Offline BitburgAggie_7377
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2011, 09:02:41 pm »
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Quote:Posted by seldom
I don't think that's the crossing that Dunham meant in his letter. Dodie and several others historians  of the area talk about a crossing on the old Shiner ranch in Mullen county. The Shiner ranch was small for Texas only 40 thousand acres or so.



Interesting.....Weaver cemetery is on the old Shiner Ranch (close to the old barn) near where the San Diego - Tilden road crossed the Nueces River.   Just have to see how that relates in the history books to "Laredo Crossing".

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Offline seldomTopic starter
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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2011, 09:15:39 pm »
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I knew the San Diego - Tilden road run thru the ranch but did not know about the Weaver cemetery.

Wasn't there a book about the Shiner Ranch can't remember for sure but if there was may be worth reading.

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Offline BitburgAggie_7377
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2011, 09:48:45 pm »
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Relevant History Marker    (This would probably be ON the old Shiner Ranch)

Old San Antonio-Laredo Road

Year Marker Erected:   1973
Marker Location:   
Highway 72 about 5 miles west of Tilden, Texas
Marker Text:   
Shortly after the founding of Laredo, in 1755, the Spanish established a transportation-communication route across this site.  The road provided necessary abundance of water and grass for travel across the arid region, and served as a vital link between San Antonio and Laredo for well over a century.  Although under constant surveillance by hostile Indian tribes, this route was traversed by numerous notable people.  Fray Gaspar Jose De Solis passed this site on Aug. 21, 1868, on return from an inspection of Spanish Texas Mssions.  Stephen F. Austin, en route to Mexico City to seek a colonization grant, crossed here about March 18, 1822.  On Feb. 26, 1828, Manuel De Mier Y Teran passed on his way to survey Anglo-American strength in Mexican Texas.  The Somervell Expedition, in punitive retaliation for a Mexican invasion of Texas, crossed here on Dec. 1, 1842, bound for Laredo.  Before and after the Civil War the road was used as a military supply route from San Antonio to Forts Ewell (1852-1854), at Nueces River Crossing, and McIntosh, at Laredo, and as a trade outlet for early settlers.  Although abandoned after ranches were fenced and a railroad from San Antonio to Laredo was built in 1881, the road is still visible on the open range.  (1973)..


Trouble is the actual spot the road crosses the Nueces is in La Salle County southwest of there.

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« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2011, 05:55:38 pm »
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I gotta go back and read the rest of the posts but the question of why build pens when there were natural fortifications?

Two ideas on that. 1 The rock pens were already there built by someone else and they just took advantage, or 2 they may have just built a fence wall across a box canyon.

Great story Seldom, looking forward to what you and BA can dig up.

GD thats a funny story  Grin I guess one should look at how your web address will look before setting up the business name...

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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2011, 06:10:56 pm »
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Jones, love it when you chime in.   

Given the number of animals involved, I don't have a problem with the why of the pens (or at least of one pen), but I do have a problem with the amount of time involved unless they had a pretty substantial lead on their persuers but knew there was no way they could make a clean get away.   (which in turn supports the idea of them having enough manpower to mount a decent rear guard and at least a few people on point looking for a place to defend).    Even if there were some good sized boulders, etc to provide defensive cover for the gang, their still going to need to connect at least a few of those with walls to keep the livestock contained while they were fighting off the "good" guys.

Don't know about you, but personally I wouldn't pick a box canyon to make a stand in----not unless I could guarantee control of the high ground.
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BA

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Offline seldomTopic starter
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« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2011, 10:57:59 pm »
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OK I spend several hours at the library looking for new info and at early maps of the area and found nothing. So its opinion time.

1 When are where the robbery took place?
2 How many days were they on the trail?
3 Why build pens in country where its easy to hide?
4 Why did Matt Kivlin hold the map/waybill for 20 years and never look for the cache?

The robbery could have taken place anywhere from 1820 to 1870 and anywhere within 500 miles of the Nueces River. Without more info we at a wall with that.
Why did Matt Kivlin hold the map/waybill for 20 years simple there never was a cache. A raid or robbery of that size would have been recorded somewhere in Mexican or southwest history I can find no record of it.
Until a new source info comes available  I am thinking just a legend.

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« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2011, 11:50:03 pm »
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Very interesting to watch you all work your way through this story.  I like the way your minds work.  Without the facts to support it the story does end up in the legend category.  But there are so many details without support that it kinda does end up in the "L" boxed canyon itself!

GD,  Hilarious story!  Thanks for the laugh!   Grin  Grin  Grin

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Government can not give anything to anyone...  without first taking it from someone else!

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« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2011, 12:41:29 am »
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 HI Guys, The story sounds kinda familiar. Question that I was thinking about is how many Mule trains of about 31 odd have been used for transporting loot from Mexico to USA ?
 Couldn't say 30 be split into 15 on a string? Theory being 30 mules for a possible 5/6 people.
 

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« Reply #18 on: August 11, 2011, 09:02:39 am »
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Just to trigger some thoughts here!

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« Reply #19 on: August 11, 2011, 09:15:10 am »
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Love these old legends Seldom digs up BA Smiley wish I had more time lately. Always fun to work with you guys sorting out the grains of truth... or not  Grin

Good call on the box canyon, I was thinking of penning critters in a hurry and not of defending.

I've been looking for any possible suspects but nothing interesting so far.

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