Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO

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	Re: Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO « Reply #20 on: June 05, 2011, 10:58:31 am »

The rings on the upper layer that you see appear to be touching each other. It looks like there are at least 2 - 3 layers. If you zoom in on the picture. I wonder if this setup works like a layered capacitor of some sort. Maybe it's alien technology! Shocked

Thanks for the link to the manual. I have that one, but unfortunately there are no pictures. It still is essential though.. Thanks again

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	Re: Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO « Reply #21 on: June 05, 2011, 11:28:50 am »

Ok! All indipendent coils as should be in a TR. So there must be a wire hidden on the top side some place.

I posted your photo on Geo Tech asking.

Wait and see.

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GoldDigger1950

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	Re: Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO « Reply #22 on: June 05, 2011, 04:58:43 pm »

The copper foil you are looking at is a Faraday shield to focus any field generated in the downward direction. Quite good overall for the functioning of the coil itself. From a design standpoint, it is a top notch coil when you have shielding like that. That shield would be connected to ground in your detector. The coils themselves would most likely be put into a configuration of the TR coil in the middle and the RX coils on the outside in a reverse field configuration. It's similar in operation to a single transmitter coil and a Double D configuration on the receiver where the coils are made to counteract each other by being out of phase. Again, normal.

So, the next step is to figure out which wires belong to which coil elements. Underneath the shield, you should see fine wires in loops for the coils with each having their ends available to be wired or cross wired as needed. Since you have a crack in the housing, it may be that water got in and cause corrosion which is causing the short circuit. Since the coil is useless in that condition, a careful dissection won't do any harm. Try not to damage the protective foam but if you do, it's repairable with a bit of RTV. When you're done making your repairs, you can seal the whole thing with a fiberglass kit from a Radio Control Model Airplane hobby shop. They have thin fiberglass which you can wrap around like a cast on a broken leg to seal everything up again. Messy, but effective.

After you see where the wires are connected under the foil, make a good circuit map for future reference. There might even be a printed circuit board in there with components on it. If so, that's going to complicate things but we are men of patience here. It may take a few days to work this out but it will eventually be fixed. The only thing that could be fatal to it is if one of the coils is so corroded that it is beyond salvation. Not likely because that would not cause a short.

Since I am in Australia, a 12 hour difference in time from the Eastern US, answers sometimes take a while. When you get inside of your coil, get a good snapshot. And one other thing. A short is not always a problem in cases like this. Very low resistance can appear to be a short and coils can be a low as 1 or 2 ohms in resistance and as much as 25 or 30 ohms. Not much. They can appear as a short but be completely normal. I'm going out on a limb here but it sounds to me like you actually have an OPEN wire inside there from corrosion due to the crack. Time will tell.

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	Re: Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO « Reply #23 on: June 05, 2011, 10:04:08 pm »

I was able to remove the coil assembly completely from the housing and the Faraday shield described earlier is also on the top. The coil assembly was glued to the upper plastic housing with a piece of heavy cardboard in between. The coil assembly is made of three layers which are glued together like a sandwich. The upper and lower layers are Faraday shields of copper foil, and there is a center section which I cannot see. It's probably impossible to separate the center section without some sort of solvent or delicate, high heat to soften the glue. The braid (ground) of the cable is soldered on the upper Faraday shield, and then the bottom Faraday shield is also connected to the upper shield with two small jumper wires.The 2 center conductor wires are partly hidden from view, and I cannot see where they terminate on the center layer. There does -not- seem to be any signs of corrosion or water entry into the coil assembly. The heavy cardboard does not have any signs of being exposed to moisture.

Now that I have the coil assembly out of its housing, there is another consideration... that the problem is -not- the coil and what appears to be a short is normal. Keep in mind that when the unit is turned on without a coil attached, there is -no- continuous tone/ clicks coming from the speaker. When I attach the small 6" coil, this also does not trigger a continuous tone. However, then the large 6x12 coil (which I just disassembled either, is attached, that is when you hear a continuous tone. I'm thinking that by attaching the coil, you are completing a circuit which has a short, but the short is not in the coil itself. Another possibility is that before I got this unit (from eBay), someone tampered with the trim pots inside the unit, and affected a setting which affects the metal / mineral null /tune knob on the front of the detector case.

As far as the coil is concerned, now that its out of the housing, it looks too cool to "hide" it inside the housing again. If, there's noting wrong with it, perhaps I could make a new housing out of clear acrylic plastic..

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	Re: Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO « Reply #24 on: June 06, 2011, 02:38:41 pm »

Still no more info found on your machine.

I'd love to see a schematic on this one. Cool

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GoldDigger1950

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	Re: Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO « Reply #25 on: June 06, 2011, 05:29:06 pm »

	Quote:	Posted by Big-Al
As far as the coil is concerned, now that its out of the housing, it looks too cool to "hide" it inside the housing again. If, there's noting wrong with it, perhaps I could make a new housing out of clear acrylic plastic..

LoL

Good idea. The coil, as I suspected earlier, may have an open circuit in the form of a broken wire inside the cable that runs from the coil to the detector. An open circuit is more likely to act like no coil is attached, which is your indication. Before fiddling with the pots inside, ring out the wires by color from the coil to the connector and see if one is an open circuit. If they are encapsulated with potting compound, pierce the cable with a small pin near where it exits being careful not to damage it too much. Then read the wire continuity to the connector.

Lots of steps here on a forum that take days to execute. This kind of troubleshooting is so, so frustrating. If we were sitting down with a cup of coffee, we'd have it working it a few minutes. Seriously.

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	Re: Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO « Reply #26 on: June 06, 2011, 06:31:03 pm »

GD, I can see the detector sounding off with a open in TR/IB mode but why would he be seeing a short between the two leads.??

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	Re: Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO « Reply #27 on: June 06, 2011, 08:35:29 pm »

All is appreciated in this step-by-step troubleshooting. I have the patience. It's you folks who deserve the applause for helping one in need.

A few comments about a short or open circuit on the large coil. First, the two white conductors read a short. I assume this would be normal if they are sharing a common ground. Individually they read 5 - 7 ohms when read against the common ground. I don't see why this is unusual. Second, the detector gives a continuous tone -only- when the large coil is connected. GD: Are you thinking that the T/R interaction inside the large coil is creating a false signal because one of the two conductors in the cable (or a coil itself) may be open / broken?

Here you have some pics of the coil assembly removed completely from the housing. You are looking at the top of the coil assembly with remnants of thick cardboard still attached. Also is a closeup pic of the termination point where the cable is attached to the coil. You may see the braid soldered to the copper plate, and the two very thin white conductors which attach to the coils themselves. This area was protected with clear silicone sealant, and I removed most of it.

Because the white wires are delicate and almost inaccessible, it would make sense to cut off the cable completely about 1-1/2 inches from the coil assembly and test it while completely dsiconnected. It can be resoldered after testing is completed. What do you think?

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	Re: Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO « Reply #28 on: June 06, 2011, 08:48:34 pm »

Just My thoughts.

A open on one of the two coils required for IB or TR would in deed be seen by the detector as a Target Ferrous or NonFerrous.

But the two coils are electrically separated exception of Inductance.

The two white wires should NOT show short to each other.

As there using a Comon Ground and sheild, if that was shorted to one of the coils you would see it as a short on the two white conductors.

Does that make sense to you?
Idea

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	Re: Bounty Hunter Outlaw TR/BFO « Reply #29 on: June 06, 2011, 08:56:55 pm »

I do not see a conductor used for a ground. The cable has only two white conductors, and the shield itself is the ground. Unless there is a separate ground conductor that has been completely hidden from my view because of a very tight /precise soldering job, I believe there is no ground conductor wire. Now, if that's the case then you would have two separate coils sharing the same ground conductor. The current would pass through the common ground connection and read a short when both white wires are tested together. The T/R coils would not be electrically separated.

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