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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2009, 02:24:44 am »
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Quote:Posted by technos
The patents would have expired on the detector. In fact, so has the trademark for the detectors! It's true that the schematics may not be released, but there is little that they (or anyone) can do to stop someone from tracing out the schematic.

In addition, people are reporting less than reliable repairs made by the one guy who does have the schematics in his possession (i.e. possibly due to a lack of access to some parts)!


You'd better check on the patent laws, mate. They don't expire as you believe they do.

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« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2009, 04:09:17 am »
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Quote:Posted by GoldDigger1950
You'd better check on the patent laws, mate. They don't expire as you believe they do.


For the U.S. I know them well, as it's a constitutionally defined purpose i.e. limited exclusivity in exchange for promotion of the arts.

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Twenty years
and they're dead. Then anybody can take them and roll them into something else new.

Perhaps your country is different, however most have adopted the WTO length of term. However, U.S constitution trumps any treaty, for laws applicable within the U.S. Or perhaps you are thinking of copyrights, which seemingly never expire, because of an unfortunate bastardization of the law and our corrupt political process (which in the end could taint patents eventually even).  Undecided

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« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 04:46:08 am by technos »
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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #22 on: December 29, 2009, 04:54:22 am »
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Quote:Posted by technos
For the U.S. I know them well, as it's a constitutionally defined purpose i.e. limited exclusivity in exchange for promotion of the arts.

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Twenty years
and they're dead. Then anybody can take them and roll them into something else new.

Perhaps your country is different, however most have adopted the WTO length of term. However, U.S constitution trumps any treaty, for laws applicable within the U.S. Or perhaps you are thinking of copyrights, which seemingly never expire, because of an unfortunate bastardization of the law and our corrupt political process (which in the end could taint patents eventually even).  Undecided


I'm American and hold more then 40 US patents. My kid brother is my patent attorney. You're incorrect.

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« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2009, 06:00:57 am »
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Quote:Posted by GoldDigger1950
I'm American and hold more then 40 US patents. My kid brother is my patent attorney. You're incorrect.


Perhaps you could explain how I am incorrect (and provide links as I did), so that I might rewrite the Wikipedia article as well as the Code of Federal Regulations. Simply stating something does not make it accurate. Your kid brother lawyer is doing you a serious disservice by misleading you about the length of patent terms if it differs from what I have explained. You should call him and ask him if I am right or not. I'm sure that as a patent holder, you would like to think your patents will never expire. But that is not true, and you may need to get another attorney.

BTW, how do you think you are able to buy "generic" drugs at the pharmacy??

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« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 06:13:20 am by technos »
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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2009, 06:16:39 am »
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Generic drugs are licensed. You really need to understand how a patent works, mate.

I also never said that they don't expire but you are quite wrong on when they do and under what circumstances.

Not only that but patents are pretty much useless since they are all abstracted and not actual schematics. Look in the Downloads area here. I've posted a few patents here and I always warn people that they are not detailed enough to use as a schematic but in most cases will allow you lots of food for thought.

As to thinking . . . Oh, never mind.

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« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 06:23:46 am by GoldDigger1950 »
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« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2009, 06:58:59 am »
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Quote:Posted by GoldDigger1950
Generic drugs are licensed. You really need to understand how a patent works, mate.


No. From the

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Wikipedia article
;

"A generic drug (generic drugs, short: generics) is a drug which is produced and distributed without patent protection."

But hey, don't take my word for it,

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here is the government website explaining patent terms
.

While many patents do not contain schematics, schematics most certainly can be derived from a patent (though it might not be the exact one the patent holder created) by those skilled in the art. They may also be derived from machines that have been made and sold (as we already know). A schematic is not a patent, and it offers no I.P. protection whatsoever outside of a patent.

GoldDigger1950, I have patiently supplied links and exposition supporting all my original statements. You have done neither. I would appreciate it if you would offer me the same consideration other than spouting that I need to know how a patent works. Otherwise you are wasting perfectly good electrons while needlessly warming the mother earth. I seriously wonder if you even have bothered to click on any of the links I have provided.

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« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 07:11:58 am by technos »
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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2009, 03:41:36 pm »
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Quote:Posted by technos
No. From the

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Wikipedia article
;

"A generic drug (generic drugs, short: generics) is a drug which is produced and distributed without patent protection."

But hey, don't take my word for it,

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here is the government website explaining patent terms
.

While many patents do not contain schematics, schematics most certainly can be derived from a patent (though it might not be the exact one the patent holder created) by those skilled in the art. They may also be derived from machines that have been made and sold (as we already know). A schematic is not a patent, and it offers no I.P. protection whatsoever outside of a patent.

GoldDigger1950, I have patiently supplied links and exposition supporting all my original statements. You have done neither. I would appreciate it if you would offer me the same consideration other than spouting that I need to know how a patent works. Otherwise you are wasting perfectly good electrons while needlessly warming the mother earth. I seriously wonder if you even have bothered to click on any of the links I have provided.


Believe what you want. If you take a Wiki entry as a fact, then shame on you. Go out and dig in the dirt for a while.

Generic medicines MUST use the formula from the original medicine to be allowed. End of story. There is no formula in a patent. Only an abstract. The generic manufacturers license the formula from the original creators. That's how it works. A product is generally released to the generic licensing process after development costs have been recovered. Imagine that it takes $300 million to develop a drug. The money is recovered and a profit made for the shareholders. At some point, a decision to release the formula to the generic manufacturers is made and a license is granted for a fee. That's how it works.

As to the Fisher patents, why not show me one where there's a schematic? Why? Because you can't so this argument of yours is moot. As to patents, you are clueless but thanks to Wiki, very bold. Patent abstracts are just that. Abstract. No help for the technician on repairing a Fisher. You're better off just poking around with a blunt screwdriver.

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« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 04:17:20 pm by GoldDigger1950 »
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« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2009, 06:52:08 pm »
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Quote:Posted by GoldDigger1950
Believe what you want. If you take a Wiki entry as a fact, then shame on you. Go out and dig in the dirt for a while.

Generic medicines MUST use the formula from the original medicine to be allowed. End of story. There is no formula in a patent. Only an abstract. The generic manufacturers license the formula from the original creators. That's how it works. A product is generally released to the generic licensing process after development costs have been recovered. Imagine that it takes $300 million to develop a drug. The money is recovered and a profit made for the shareholders. At some point, a decision to release the formula to the generic manufacturers is made and a license is granted for a fee. That's how it works.


Ok, I'll quote a government website

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fda.gov


When new drugs are first made they have drug patents. Most drug patents are protected for 17 years. The patent, which protects the company that made the drug first, doesn't allow anyone else to make and sell the drug. When the patent expires, other drug companies can start selling a generic version of the drug. But, first, they must test the drug and the FDA must approve it.

Nowhere does it say the generic is licensed. Indeed, that's what takes place while the patent is in force, not when it is expired. Also kindly note the government states that patents expire.

The government patent office has a very basic website for kids answering these very questions definitively. Here are some questions and answers from the

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patent office government website
;

Quote from: uspto.gov
Why do you need a patent?

A patent gives an inventor the right to exclude all others from making, using, importing, selling or offering to sell the invention for up to 20 years without the inventor's permission. This gives the inventor the opportunity to produce and market the invention himself, or license others to do so, and to make a profit.

Can you renew a patent after it expires?

No, you can't renew a patent after it expires. However, patents may be extended by a special act of Congress and under certain circumstances certain pharmaceutical patents may be extended to make up the time lost during the Food and Drug Administration's approval process. After the patent expires, the inventor loses exclusive rights to the invention.(emphasis mine)


Now, if an inventor loses his exclusive rights to a patent, what would legally compel me to pay him a licensing fee for use of his patent? Let's not forget that he got his "dime" the previous 20 years by making/licensing his patent!

Quote from: GoldDigger1950
"As to the Fisher patents, why not show me one where there's a schematic? Why? Because you can't so this argument of yours is moot. As to patents, you are clueless but thanks to Wiki, very bold. Patent abstracts are just that. Abstract. No help for the technician on repairing a Fisher. You're better off just poking around with a blunt screwdriver."


That may be the case that not having a schematic makes things more difficult as to repair, but it's not impossible. More advanced technicians will know what to look for and can accomplish many repairs without a schematic (or a patent for that matter). I agree that manufacturers can make things more difficult by scratching off numbers or potting electronics, but that has not deterred the reversing engineer if he has enough resources and time (and if there is enough economic incentive). But repairing a metal detector and engineering a circuit are two different things entirely. Patents are intended for engineering circuits, not so much repairing them.

So much as the wiki article that you have dismissed out of hand, I have now directly quoted the federal government patents office website that agrees with it entirely. Are you willing to say that's wrong too?


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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2009, 09:10:17 pm »
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You're still incorrect making incorrect assumptions from web sites. You'll learn one day, Grasshopper.

Like most people who use the web for their only source of legal information, you can't look deeply enough. For example, generic drugs CAN be licensed but that's not the ONLY way they are produced. When licensed, the FDA approval gets easy or non-existent. Patents CAN be renewed and most often ARE renewed. Some are allowed to lapse to save money since newer models often make older patents obsolete. But then, you can't see all that from the sites and cites you made here.

Real world experience with 40 US patents, a few more UK patents and some Australian patents make me a real world user and owner. Much more valuable than a two dimensional web site with only partial information available. Other laws are always being passed and added so a patent lawyer is a valuable asset.

An example of a web site being a bad resource is this tale. A regular here mentioned something about customs in Australia implementing a tariff on metal detectors imported here. Well, I went to the Australian Customs site and found nothing. Not a word. Not a whisper. I was convinced he was making it up. But then I called a dealer who imports them direct from manufacturers worldwide and found out he was paying dearly for the privilege of importing metal detectors. There is a tariff and he pointed me to the legislation. Apparently, heavy lobbying by an Australian manufacturer drove that into law as an obscure addition to another law. Very sneaky but it means that prices here are higher than the rest of the world. Sad, that. The lesson is that web sites are good starting points but are not now nor have they ever been the final word on anything. Thus, you may cite all the web pages you wish and I will continue to ignore them unless I know them to be factual from real world experiences. If you choose to believe them as Gospel, that's your choice, my friend.

My patents will be renewed as often as the law allows. I like it that way. So does my bank account.

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« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 09:34:00 pm by GoldDigger1950 »
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2010, 11:50:26 pm »
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Quote:Posted by GoldDigger1950
You're still incorrect making incorrect assumptions from web sites. You'll learn one day, Grasshopper.


Well GoldDigger1950, you're entitled to your own opinions,

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but not your own facts
. Kind of  prideful calling numerous websites including the ones run by the patent office themselves as wrong. Because you have yet to cite anything at all other than what you think.

Quote from: GoldDigger1950
My patents will be renewed as often as the law allows. I like it that way. So does my bank account.
.

It would be really unfortunate if you was sending money to some crook lawyer who was selling you patents that had already expired. Think of all the other things you could use the money for instead! But I do not know, as I don't have any idea what patents you may or may not have.

I have been following technology patents for some time, especially those having to do with metal detectors. I plan on using the expired patents in a couple of my own designs. And I'm not going to pay a licensing fee for doing so.

I think that we had best agree to disagree and move on here. They say that the best treasure hunters are the ones who do the best research. I hope the new year would enable you to do so, and see where you have errored in a couple of your arguments.

Regards, and Happy New Year.   Grin

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« Last Edit: January 01, 2010, 11:55:28 pm by technos »
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