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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2009, 12:08:10 am »
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Dell, there is one thing I sense about you and that is your sense of honor. When I say there has never been proof positive that LRLs work 100% of the time with 100% accuracy, that is something that even you cannot deny. Manufacturers claim that their machines will locate things at a distance and that simply is not true all the time. In fact, point anywhere you wish with your hand held parallel to the ground and you will ultimately reach gold. I guarantee that. Whether it is up on a mountaintop, below the sea or around the neck of a man, gold will be found in the indicated direction. But that is not dowsing or LRLs at work. That is simply the odds and the distance of 23,000 miles before your directional indication meets itself again. You should be able to sort out the fallacy in the claim when you reason things out.

I believe that we are not alone on planet earth. I firmly believe that there are other creatures out there somewhere looking up at the stars and wondering if other creatures are out there. But I do not for one minute believe that they have yet made it to earth any more than we have made it to them. I want desperately to meet a creature with intelligence from another world so nobody wants their existence more than I do. I feel exactly the same about LRLs. I want for them to work but like alien visitors, I do not believe it has happened yet. Have I witnessed testing? Oh, yes. In person. LRLs did not work nor did dowsing. But that does not stop me from looking for it to work one day. If you were able to prove it works, you would have by now. So, I must conclude that you cannot prove without a doubt that LRLs will work 100% of the time with 100% accuracy.

But I do wish you could. It would make my day.

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« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2009, 11:11:25 am »
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That's probably where we differ. I don't place much confidence in belief. I have never used a Treasure Hunting tool that was dependent on the operator's belief that it would work, and that includes Mental Dowsing. It either works, or it doesn't. If it doesn't work, I discard it because I don't have the time to waste with it.

LRL, is a useful, time saving tool in the right hands, even with it's inherent limitations, or I certainly wouldn't be using it in my arsenal of Treasure Hunting tools if it didn't work. Neither would my customers.

I cannot see any logic to your analogy comparing conventional Metal detectors with distance locating. I introduced the first underwater P.I. to the US market. It revolutionized underwater Treasure Hunting. I have been a Whites metal detector dealer. I have field tested prototypes for manufacturers, I own several metal detectors, so Yes, I am familiar with Metal detectors, as well as other Geophysical  instruments. I am also familiar, and knowledgeable about LRL's, so it's very easy for me to spot when the Scientific pretenders are speaking in ignorance.

Quote:Posted by {author}
If you were able to prove it works, you would have by now.


Tell me, how can you possibly justify that comment about me, and be truthful?  Surely, you are joking. For 30 years I have  experimented, field tested, conducted hundreds of witnessed DB tests, and I personally use Remote Sensing Frequency Discrimination MFD, HID, and Directional Locators, as useful tools that aid me in my own searches, proving that the ones I build work exactly as I claim they do.

I certainly don't make any such claim that my Metal detector, will find me Gold 100% of the time. Neither do I make such a ludicrous  claim, or even infer, that my products will find Gold, for anyone 100% of the time. I don't know why some folks even  attempt to make an argument on that basis, and imply that is what I claim my products will do?  That's certainly NOT TRUE!

On the contrary, Marking an X on the ground from an LRL location, and digging down and expecting to get rich, is not  my purpose, or intention for using LRL's. Neither should it be yours for buying one..

As a Professional Treasurehunter/Salvor, for over 35 years, I use MFD, HID, and Directional Locators  as Information gathering tools, proven to  saving me time & money by quickly being able to  conduct preliminary surveys, make an analysis, determine the feasibility of recovery, and determine if further investigation of the site is warranted.
 
Has Gold, ever been found from a distance as a direct result of the use of LRL?  The answer is YES, and sometimes in large quantity.

The bottom line is, my products are dumb, stupid devices with no intelligence of their own. They are only as good as the intelligence, knowledge and experience of the people using them.

It's been my experience that, well informed consumers, make my very best customers, and become my close friends. Now, you know why I bother to post a reply.   Dell

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« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 11:24:42 am by Dell_Winders »
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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2009, 11:14:23 am »
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So, Dell . . . that would be a no?

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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2009, 12:26:12 pm »
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Since I've been invoked in this discussion, I'd like to comment on a few things.

"No LRL device has ever been shown to work as described by their manufacturer."

Read the advertisement! What do manufacturers actually claim their LRLs will do? What does Fitzgerald claim? What does Afilani (Electroscope) claim? What does Dell claim? When you read carefully, you'll find that they never really make any claims at all. Go ahead, try to find where they say, "this device will locate buried gold". They don't. It's always a bunch of vague, meaningless statements that add up to zero.

So, to say that "no LRL device has ever been shown to work as described by their manufacturer" doesn't mean a whole lot in the end. And if a manufacturer only claims, "My LRL works as good as units costing 5 times as much," well, that's probably a truthful statement, if none of them work at all!

"There has never been proof positive that LRLs work 100% of the time with 100% accuracy."

I will actually agree with Dell, that even metal detectors don't work "100% of the time with 100% accuracy." The real question is, "Do LRLs work at all?" First, you have to define what "works" means. Certainly, LRLs "work" in the context that people will pay money for one, so they find "treasure" at least once! But the buyer's expectation is that an LRL will truly locate buried treasure (gold, silver, and whatever else the LRL has labels for) from a distance. LRLs do not, and cannot, do that. Never ever.

Please note that I do not deny that people who use LRLs have never ever found treasure. They have. But their success was undoubtedly due to other factors. LRLs do not, and cannot, locate buried treasure.

I currently own 30 LRLs. I've tested them, and I've dissected them. None of them work, per a reasonable definition of "work." The vast majority are dowsing rods with do-nothing electronics added on, most of which a legitimate electronics manufacturer would be ashamed to produce. My latests are a Fitzgerald PDF-1000 and an original Omnitron Noah. Neither owner was a "satisfied customer."

A lot of people have contacted me over the years, some to thank me for the information I provided that prevented them from wasting a few thousand dollars. But others who didn't do their homework ask me why the LRL they just bought doesn't seem to work. They never like the answer I have. And, yes, there are some True Believers out there, some have gotten downright angry with me over what I've said about their devices. I only provide information, do what you will with it. LRLs are the ultimate Caveat Emptor, and if you still choose to buy one so you can pretend to be a big-time treasure hunter, then have fun with it, and don't worry about whether it works or not!

- Carl


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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2009, 01:23:21 pm »
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Nice post Carl,

The thing that I can not understand is
why people get so worked up about it.

I have been around water dowsing all
my life. It is more like a social event.
No one cared whether it worked. The
well was going to be drilled. It might
as well be where it was dowsed, unless
there was a no go by the driller.

Personally, I could care less.

People in some areas in Arkansas
actually use dowsing to find utilities.
Who knows how that works, but it
has been going on for a long time.
I have never seen anyone use an
expensive device to do it with.

But, it is a shame to see folks buy
some of these things, when a willow
stick or a couple of welding rods would
work just as well.

Happy Huntin,

Tabdog

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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2009, 02:48:24 pm »
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Carl, I can tell you have not been to eBay lately. The claims are there in full by at least one manufacturer.

The first one I found just now: 320402684437
There are others with the same claims.

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http://cgi.ebay.com/MODEL-B-LONG-RANGE-GOLD-SILVER-LOCATOR-METAL-DETECTOR_W0QQitemZ320402684437QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4a997cfa15&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


From that item listing:
THIS IS A NEW UNUSED ITEM - comes with manual, training DVD, battery, and full 1 year factory warranty. Features include gol/silver switch, battery test light, extendable triple antenna system, sensitivity/10 position tuning. Long range locators are used to search large areas in a minimum amount of time, increasing the efficiency of target location. The free floating instrument will lock on to a target ( visualize the needle in a compass - it will always point North regardless of how you change the position of the compass itself) with the added ability to lead the user to the target location, usually within 2 to 4 feet square area. This is achieved by either triangulation or boxing method. Distances and depth the instrument can achieve can vary according to various factors, such as operator skill, dry - wet ground, item conductivity and lenght of time in the ground, size of target and so on, but the factory specs suggests: 2 to 4 feet depth on small targets, 6 to 8 feet on large targets. Distance is 200 to 250 feet for small/medium targets, up to 1000 feet for large targets. Metal detectors need to search every inch of an area to assure total and complete coverage of an area. By using a long range locator, you can narrow your search area quickly and accurately, allowing the operator to concentrate only on the potential site itself. A metal detector can then be used to accurately pinpoint coin size targets. Shipping is FREE anytown USA in lower 48 states. Other locations actual shipping fees will apply. Payment, if you have a confirmed address accepted via PAY PAL.

I changed the font color to red for the outrageous claims which cannot be verified. Over my forty years (plus) in treasure hunting, I have seen many ads far more specific than this which have made direct claims that cannot ever be proven. Nobody wishes that the claims were true any more than I do. Or you, I suppose, but it they have never been proven and probably never will be proven.

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« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 03:08:30 pm by GoldDigger1950 »
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« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2009, 03:05:29 pm »
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tabdog, dowsing for water and dowsing for treasure are two different things. There are some people who do not need any type of dowsing device, but this is rare and I doubt any of them learned how to dowse without some sort of device. Some people use a pair of pliers or a crowbar. Some devices are more sensitive than others, and the crude ones are more for water dowsing. It takes lots of practice to become more sensitive. The same person that uses a crowbar is not going to be able to appreciate a fine instrument. On the other end of the scale are those who can't overcome their negativity no matter how good the device is. Getting people angry is a tactic to divert attention. There are a couple of people who have become skilled at this.



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« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2009, 05:48:45 pm »
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Let's take a closer look:

THIS IS A NEW UNUSED ITEM - comes with manual, training DVD, battery, and full 1 year factory warranty. Features include gold/silver switch, battery test light, extendable triple antenna system, sensitivity/10 position tuning.

No claims here... the "gold/silver switch" might imply that the device is somehow used for gold or silver, but it's only an implication, not a claim. The goal, of course, is to create that perception with the reader.

Long range locators are used to search large areas in a minimum amount of time, increasing the efficiency of target location.

Yes, LRLs are used to search large areas. "Increasing the efficiency of target location?" Well, if dowsing is only an "intuition indicator" as I believe it is, then it can help some people focus on most likely search areas. But you can do this without dowsing, too.

The free floating instrument will lock on to a target ( visualize the needle in a compass - it will always point North regardless of how you change the position of the compass itself) with the added ability to lead the user to the target location, usually within 2 to 4 feet square area. This is achieved by either triangulation or boxing method.

Dowsing rods do give the feeling of "locking" on to a target, although it is all a mind trick. But what target? Gold? A rock? A blade of grass? What testable claim is being made here? Nothing, really. We would have to press more to get to a testable claim, something the seller would probably avoid.

Distances and depth the instrument can achieve can vary according to various factors, such as operator skill, dry - wet ground, item conductivity and lenght of time in the ground, size of target and so on, but the factory specs suggests: 2 to 4 feet depth on small targets, 6 to 8 feet on large targets. Distance is 200 to 250 feet for small/medium targets, up to 1000 feet for large targets.

Again, for what? A rock? They don't say, and that's probably not an oversight.

Metal detectors need to search every inch of an area to assure total and complete coverage of an area. By using a long range locator, you can narrow your search area quickly and accurately, allowing the operator to concentrate only on the potential site itself.

Sure, you can use an LRL to narrow your search area, but that doesn't mean it got you to the right area, eh? No claim here.

A metal detector can then be used to accurately pinpoint coin size targets.

This, of course, is the real key to successfully using an LRL. If the metal detector doesn't beep, keep looking. If, eventually, you find something, then the LRL must have helped! Remember the rare successes, forget the many many failures. That's how it really works.

All in all, this ad fails to state that the LRL can detect buried gold, or do anything else useful. All the claims are vague and generally untestable. Read the ads for Fitzgerald and Electroscope, and see if they give any testable specifics.

- Carl


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Offline GoldDigger1950
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« Reply #18 on: August 16, 2009, 05:50:21 pm »
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Carl, they are all claims which cannot be proven. Relax. I'm not blaming you but they do exist. That was just the first of dozens on eBay. I selected only one. All of them make claims as do web sites where manufacturers make wild claims.

It's not your fault. You don't have to defend them or excuse them. Seriously.

Are you by some chance an LRL manufacturer taking offense at my comments?

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« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 05:53:29 pm by GoldDigger1950 »
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« Reply #19 on: August 16, 2009, 05:58:30 pm »
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The honest, truthful  & Ethical thing for Carl, to do in his continued efforts to discredit me, is to at least add a disclaimer  that the comments he makes are only his "Personal opinion", and not entirely fact, or truth based.

Carl, and his affliation with the Randi Skeptic organization, has a  determined agenda to spread dis-information about my use, and my customers use, of the products I manufacture. It's a purposeful, and intentional cover up for James Randi's, libelous untruths.   Randi himself, and his loyal followers, such as Carl Morland, have been using inference & innuendo,  on public forums I attend, for 15 years, to slander, discredit, and untruthfully brand Dell Winders, a liar, a Scam Artist, and a fraud (names publicly used against me by Randi himself, and other radicals of the Skeptic organization) in order to discredit my life long reputation of Honesty & Integrity.

Carl's comments, pretending  he is an authority on this subject, is just another of Carl's, sneaky examples  of saving face for Randi, and himself. O.K. I've invoked Carl's name, at least 14 times here so that will be more than an adequate excuse for Carl, to further promote deception, in the name of Science

Quote:Posted by {author}
I currently own 30 LRLs. I've tested them, and I've dissected them. None of them work, per a reasonable definition of "work." The vast majority are dowsing rods with do-nothing electronics added on, most of which a legitimate electronics manufacturer would be ashamed to produce.


Why would Carl, acquire 30 outdated, and non functioning LRL's. Almost all the LRL's that are on the market around the world that utilize electronics,  are indeed manufactured by Electronic engineers, and techs. Heck, some of those do nothing electronics Carl, speaks of are sold by major electronics manufacturers for use by Electronic engineers & Techs.

I am the possible exception. for I know practically nothing about electronics, and would never argue against the merits of electronics. Yet, the products I build, and the ones I've used utilizing Dowsing Rod(s), or Directional LRL, have  certainly been helpful to me, and in some cases extremely  helpful to my friends, and customers, as an aid in the search for deeply buried Treasure.  

I've personally found the underwater remains of more than 100 shipwrecks, with the aid of Directional LRL's, and recovered artifacts and Treasure from them. I can prove all that I say, or I won't say it.

This scientific pretender, who tries to make a name for himself at my expense, comes here and authoritativly declares that Dowsing Rods, and LRL's, never, ever work as claimed, because they can't work. The inference is, that I am not doing what I am doing, and therefore I  am being untruthful, or have mis-guided beliefs about what I do. Unfortunately, there are people here who are going to believe Carl's trash, on the merits of his formal education, electronics knowledge, and degree, but know nothing about the person.

Carl, complained for years that I do not make advertising claims, that my products will find Gold, Silver, or any other Treasure for my customers. I'm sure Carl, and Randi, wished I would make such an irresponsible claim, then they could be truthful in publicly stating their false assessment of me, LRL users, and Dowsers.

Even Metal detector manufacturers don't actually claim their products are going to find Gold, or Silver, for ALL, or even any of their customers. But, they sure do infer that possibility in their advertising,  with pictures, and testimonials of all the Treasure found with their product, don't they?  

Carl, who is a proclaimed Skeptic, states that he owns 30 so called long Range locators, and yet, in 15 years of public attacks against me as a proclaimed Skeptic, He has never once  reported that he has ever conducted any legitimate Scientific Field testing on MFD, HID, LRL, or Dowsing Rods,  or of using a knowledgeable, and experienced operator to perform the field tests.  Ever wonder why?

Carl, demonstrates an egotistical  BELIEF in his own expertise by claiming, HE doesn't need to conduct any field tests. HE KNOWS, that LRL's, or anything that uses Dowsing Rods,  can't possible work, so why bother with unnecessary field testing?  His Scientific explanation for not conducting  extensive field testing on Dowsing, or LRL's, as I have already done during the past 35 years, is;  "IF IT LOOKS LIKE A DUCK, WALKS LIKE A DUCK, AND QUACKS LIKE A DUCK, THERE CAN BE NO MISTAKE, IT IS A DUCK.

Welcome to Carl Morland's, imaginative world of pretend Science.  

                                                                            QUACK!   QUACK!





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« Last Edit: August 16, 2009, 06:31:27 pm by Dell_Winders »
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