[x] Welcome at THunting.com!

A fun place to talk about Metal Detecting, Treasure Hunting & Prospecting. Here you can share finds and experience with thousands of members from all over the world

Join us and Register Now - Its FREE & EASY

THunting.com
Treasure Hunting & Metal Detecting Community
   
Advanced Search
*
Welcome, Guest! Please login or register HERE - It is FREE and easy.
Only registered users can post and view images on our message boards.
Did you miss your activation email?

Login with email, password and session length
Or Login Using Social Network Account
News:
Pages:  1 2   Go Down
Print
Share this topic on FacebookShare this topic on Del.icio.usShare this topic on DiggShare this topic on RedditShare this topic on Twitter
Tags:
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Offline hardluckTopic starter
Gold Member
*

Join Date: Aug, 2009
Thank you8

Activity
0%
Posts: 1738
Referrals: 0

8875.00 Gold
View Inventory

Awards
« on: October 01, 2009, 02:49:18 am »
Go Up Go Down

To all of those who are looking for treasure.

I hope here are some words of advice to those who walk in the footsteps of history to seek treasures of the past.

For some who dream and others who live their dreams for what ever they seek! The world is changing and the fundamental primeval right to seek treasures from the past is by rights becoming more and more legislated out of existence.

Governments are becoming aware as technology improves and become more available to the general public there is a risk more archeological sites will be trashed. They fear that their cultural history will be looted from them. It is our history not theirs that has become a valuable commodity just like water. It is now in ownership of the state on behalf of the people in name only, but not for the people.

It does not matter if the treasures you seek is on sea or land. Governments? policy is dictated by a small group of intellectuals in the field of archeology. Who by pretensions of their profession believe that the interested general public should not be part of policy making? Or be activity involved in seeking the treasures from history?   

They actively exclude all interested parties and have not encouraged learning or controlled archeological treasure recovery projects. They have a tax payer funded life style with the world?s history at their control and the world as their play ground. The UNESCO agreement of shipwrecks is clearly written and drafted by an elite group of archeologists set to preserve the status quo. They aim to stop the privatization of their profession and open up their stranglehold on what is now becoming a recognized valuable commodity.
 
Because of this legislation thousands of shipwrecks will be left to rot for eternity because of lack of funding by governments to recover our history. Governments should privatize the recovery of history and archeologists should be part of the free market forces. And archeologists should not be a protected species. Are you in your job?

Private enterprise under set protocol and the guidance of archeologists could effectively fund the recovery of our history and treasures in a more cost effective manner. Thus avoiding costly archeological projects by under funded by governments. And by the simple fact that most of the general public never gets to see the results of their research that we pay for from our taxes, it could in theory give us tax  payers some input into the discovery of our history. Items of treasure not considered of cultural importance could be sold off to the general public to fund such projects.

All cultural artifacts discovered to be taken in custody of the state for museums. Gold and coinage to greater part be treasure trove to the privatized interested parties. Providing they follow all protocols in the search and recovery of the treasure. This would insure all parties followed protocol.

The UK in some respects has a fair system with artifacts and treasure trove if claimed by the state has to compensate the finder by independent panel on the value of the find. This system if adopted world wide would reduce the black market for historical artifacts and be more inclusive for the general public to be involved in recovering their history.

Under current status quo of UNESCO agreement much of our history and treasure will disappear in secret never to see the light of day ever again. And that for any one who has interest in the subject is a travesty of justice.

There is some thing else at stake with a powerful force in dictating treasure trove laws? The UNESCO international agreements and laws have restricted the legal trade of cultural historic artifacts for many years now.

The desire to acquire items from various cultures of antiquities has created a market of over demand than supply. However the demand is still dictating the market forces behind such a trade. Which is in turn is fueling the black market trade in antiquities.

And who do you ask is the main collectors and buyer of such illicit items of history? The museums and private collectors, directors of large corporations and the wealthy and some times the very famous elite, all have their fingers in the pie.

An example came from this when a ring of treasure hunters and smugglers a few years ago were involved in removing secretly plundered artifacts from Peru. Pre Columbian Items were shipped from northern Peru to a dealer in the United States.

The dealer on sold such items to some of the most famous people in Hollywood as decorations and as private collections. The secret network was so strong and had so much influence even museums and large corporations got in the act.

It all went horribly wrong when the original treasure hunters were caught by the Peruvian Antiquities police uncovered the network. The paper trail which led to the trader and dealer who in turn was investigated by the FBI lead to further arrests.

There were many red faces among the Hollywood elite. Large Corporations and companies quickly went into damage control with their purchases. Even our bastions of moral obligations for the protection of cultural assets the museums had their hands dirty. In an effort to avoid an international incident the United State government retrieved most of the treasure without further prosecutions to avoid the embarrassing revelation of the influential people involved.

This is by no means, not only country that has its citizens with fingers in the pie. Other countries have handled the situation very differently. However where there is the rich and powerful involved the charges always seem to melt away. The fear is once Pandora?s boxes is opened up, you never know who it could lead to?

Even today there are places in Asia among other places were I could acquire artifacts from China, Cambodia. India etc? The leading buyers are from the Middle East and Asia as they are awash with oil money and prepared to pay big bucks for items of antiquity.

Such a high demand on artifacts has led many other black market operations. There is a fake artifact of antiquity industry. This industry is very big business. So big if it was fully revealed it would embarrass the main leading cultural institutions of the world. It is estimated that perhaps about 15 to 20% of artifacts in museums and art galleries today could possibly be fake.

Some museums to protect their integrity will cover up the fact that many of their artifacts are clever fakes. Many a fortune has been paid out in the past for historical items which with today technology can be proved to be fakes.

The driving force of this industry for fakes is of course market demand. There are flourishing industries in India, Peru, Ecuador, United States, Italy, Greece, Egypt, Turkey and Asia that excel on the level of authenticity of the items they produced. Some are so good that even the so called experts with technology at their finger tips can some times be fooled.

An example of this is Southern Peru there is group of people so good at faking the real thing. They have a method that can fool carbon 14 dating of items. It is a process of baking and item in an oven with mixture of llama droppings to give a false Carbon 14 reading.

They say time spent in a successful research and recovery is researching the treasure story is 40%, searching for it is 10% and trying to keep it from the paws of greedy government officials is another 50%.

But unless there is change of policy from the countries that have signed up to the terrible UNESCO agreement and countries ill defined and poorly designed legislation in regards to treasure trove laws, the days of  people openly researching history and searching for treasure is numbered. And the black market profiteers from fakes and illicit antiquity dealers will continue to line the pockets of the rich and powerful.
 


Linkback:

You are not allowed to view links.
Please Register or Login

http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg52176.html#msg52176




Logged
Offline Diggerbarns
Copper Member
*

Join Date: Oct, 2009
Thank you1

Activity
0%
Posts: 48
Referrals: 0

280.00 Gold
View Inventory

Awards
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2009, 10:15:33 am »
Go Up Go Down

Hardluck,

Well written and well put. Hit the nail on the head with this one

Linkback:

You are not allowed to view links.
Please Register or Login

http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg54144.html#msg54144




Logged
Offline salvor6
Mod
Silver Member
*****

Pirate of the Martires
Join Date: Aug, 2006
Thank you13

Activity
0%
Male
United States
Posts: 630
Referrals: 0

3537.00 Gold
View Inventory

WWW Awards

Aquapulse, Fisher Proton 3 mag, Pulse Star Pro II, Humminbird 1198 side scan sonar, AK-47
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2009, 11:01:56 am »
Go Up Go Down

That was excellent Hardluck but what can we do? The treasure hunters in Florida tried to unite to form a coalition but it did not do any good. The ones in power use their position like dictators to squelch the opposition. We are powerless. The only thing to do is turn pirate.

Linkback:

You are not allowed to view links.
Please Register or Login

http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg54150.html#msg54150




Logged
Offline Alan Hassell
Bronze Member
*

Banned
Academics are Androids
Join Date: Sep, 2009
Thank you1

Activity
0%
Male
United Kingdom
Posts: 490
Referrals: 0

2530.00 Gold
View Inventory

Awards
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2009, 11:29:34 am »
Go Up Go Down

you can blame it on Archaeologists who are nothing more than a pack of scavenging sea gulls or sewer rats looking for something that they didnt have a part in finding themselves.
What does an Archaeologist do anyway? he is a legalised grave robber who disturbs the dead who were put to rest in hope that no one would disturb that person... Hmmmm something stinks in a very bad way there?  Then they go looking for scraps any scrap will do as long as its not faeces thats still fresh.  These guys were given too much power in the first place but do they do any good?
Marine Archaeologists use air lifts removing vast amounts of sand allowing wood destroying sea creatures to attack the remains which more often than not are left in situ to suffer the fate of being destroyed?  Is that preserving our history or destroying it?
Im sure if some of you guys thought about it hard enough you could come up with some prime examples of the amount of bungling that goes on at some of the digs.   Put your thinking caps on guys have a go at academics for a change they are the ones to blame.

Linkback:

You are not allowed to view links.
Please Register or Login

http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg54153.html#msg54153




Logged
Offline hardluckTopic starter
Gold Member
*

Join Date: Aug, 2009
Thank you8

Activity
0%
Posts: 1738
Referrals: 0

8875.00 Gold
View Inventory

Awards
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2009, 03:21:26 am »
Go Up Go Down

Hello Everyone, Diggerbarns , Salvor 6 , Allan Hassell

In answer to your question Salvor 6:

I am sorry to hear about the power struggle among the treasure hunters working the coast of Florida. That is exactly what the state wants to happen, to give them the excuse to shut you guys down.Unfortunately power corrupts people.

The first thing I was thinking was joint amalgamation of all interested parties under one banner, such as small claim miners, hobby weekend detectors, detecting clubs, Bottle and relic collectors, professional treasure hunters etc sign up under a professional code relevant to all countries to create a multinational lobby group with chapters each country. The more people signed up the more powerful the lobby group would be.

The more powerful the lobby group the more influence we will have with politicians who fear a potential voter back lash in each respective country. You may be surprised how much horse trading goes on in politics. Just look at the green movement has consolidated its presence in world politics.

Second thing would be a world wide campaign to privatize archeology and to push for greater transparency on where our tax paying dollars are going. That would be like firing a shot over the bows of those smug institutional parasites behind the UNESCO agreement.  Wink

Allan

As you well know Archaeologists are not good businesspeople, Just look at the Museum of North Queensland in Australia with a few shipwreck relics in a big overpriced empty box of a building losing thousands of dollars every year of tax payers money. Run by bureaucrats and not the free market forces.

Need I say more!  Wink

Hardluck  Cool

Linkback:

You are not allowed to view links.
Please Register or Login

http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg54265.html#msg54265




Logged
Offline Idaho Jones
Gold Member
*

Join Date: Apr, 2009
Thank you2

Activity
0%
Male
United States
Posts: 1560
Referrals: 0

7930.00 Gold
View Inventory

Awards
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2010, 09:31:08 am »
Go Up Go Down

Well said Hardluck and a great idea. Acadamia does have an ever tightening grip on archaeology and as Alan says sites are destroyed by time and worse by construction far in advance of the ability to process sites. If private groups were permitted to excavate they could use much improved equipment over the general archaeological community. I've seen better videos from treasure hunters documenting finds than most archaeologists, who seem to operate in secret most often.

If you dig up a relic you are a looter unless you have a piece of paper that says you can speculate, theorize, or BS to get grants....

Lobbying is the key you are right, money talks.

Linkback:

You are not allowed to view links.
Please Register or Login

http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg73217.html#msg73217




Logged
Offline BitburgAggie_7377
Klugheit und Verstandnis
Platin Member
*

Define Treasure
Klugheit und Verstandnis
Join Date: Jul, 2009
Thank you116

Activity
75%

United States
Posts: 9235
Referrals: 0

26045.00 Gold
View Inventory

Awards

Fisher Impulse , Tesoro Lobo SuperTraq, Tesoro Vaquero, Tesoro Compadre, Garrett AT Max, Whites Sierra Super Trac
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2010, 07:50:06 pm »
Go Up Go Down

Hardluck,   
      I hate to say it, but if there ever are unified world-wide treasure trove laws, I can almost guarantee they will be written in such a way that we're marginalized or eliminated.   We're the bad guys and the archeologists are the good guys, despite the common ancestry.   Up to this point, academia has pretty much controlled the media perception, so unless/until we can win that battle, we'll very likely lose any legislative battles.   (after all they paint as "greed" of the individual vs the noble quest to expand the realm of human knowledge).

BA

Linkback:

You are not allowed to view links.
Please Register or Login

http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg73318.html#msg73318




Logged
Offline hardluckTopic starter
Gold Member
*

Join Date: Aug, 2009
Thank you8

Activity
0%
Posts: 1738
Referrals: 0

8875.00 Gold
View Inventory

Awards
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2010, 02:33:53 am »
Go Up Go Down

Hello BA

I must confess that I think you are right. What happens in a perfect world does not happen in the real world.

I guess I am outward pessimist and closet optimist  Grin

I have to be I Have two projects going through various stages of legal negotiations.

Hardluck  Huh?

Linkback:

You are not allowed to view links.
Please Register or Login

http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg73384.html#msg73384




Logged
Offline bigwater
Silver Member
*

Join Date: Jan, 2010
Thank you0

Activity
0%
Male
United States
Posts: 519
Referrals: 0

5870.00 Gold
View Inventory

Awards

White's GMT
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2010, 02:42:50 am »
Go Up Go Down

I'm not so sure about that BA.  For years intellectual property rights were a huge issue around the world.  Title 17 of the US code was revamped in the mid-1970's and a concerted effort was made to internationalize copyright standards around the world making it automatic that the creator of an original work would be automatically granted a copyright, thereby protecting the intellectual property without any additional part on the creator other than simply the act of creating it.  These efforts were for the most part achieved painlessly, even given the tremendous value of intellectual property rights to the governments that may wish to lay claim to them.  I don't see why similar worldwide concessions couldn't be effected to the treasure hunting issue given appropriately similar efforts by supportive legislative representaties and activists.

Maybe people are just a lot lazier than they were in the 1970's and it will never work... but it worked with what started as Title 17 of the US code.

Linkback:

You are not allowed to view links.
Please Register or Login

http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg73385.html#msg73385




Logged

Anybody who says "it can't be done" will usually be interrupted by somebody who is already doing it.

Offline chevy05
Copper Member
*

Join Date: Aug, 2010
Thank you0

Activity
0%
Female
United States
Posts: 31
Referrals: 0

40.00 Gold
View Inventory
treasuregrl
WWW Awards

Bounty Hunter, Garrett Ace 250
« Reply #9 on: October 01, 2010, 07:44:34 pm »
Go Up Go Down

Well hardluck, I wish you Goodluck! The laws are too rigid for many of us. My town won't let you detect city parks. Getting harder and harder to find places to hunt. In Tennessee you're not suppose to remove anything at least 100 years old, good grief!  Angry

Linkback:

You are not allowed to view links.
Please Register or Login

http://www.thunting.com/smf/index.php/topic,8335.msg118349.html#msg118349




Logged
Print
Pages:  1 2   Go Up
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2005, Simple Machines | Sitemap
Copyright THunting.com