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Offline Eugene52
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2009, 07:05:59 pm »
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Quote:Posted by goldigger
Eugene52;

I think somebody is yanking your chain about silver litz wire. I think somebody told you an outrageous oxymoron untruth.

Litz wire has been around since the very earliest days of radio.... it was hair fine, multistrand copper wire, with a wrapped cotton cover. Are you saying they use hair fine, multistrand silver wire, with a cotton wrap??? Its hell to work with!  Wise

Litz wire is so fine, the resistance would be so high, that the Q of the coil would suffer. You dont want more resistamce, you want less. Think about it!

Remind me not to buy one of those machines. Multistrand is fine, for very high frequencies but at VLF frequencies its pointless, advertising hype, so is the eddy current bit; being silver wont make any difference, the small diameter will lead to higher resistance, even in silver. Shocked

I dont think you mean Litz wire, just that it is multistrand... what size??

Brian AKA goldigger


Hello Goldigger .
Minelab is yanking my Chain !!! Here is the Link :
HH........Regards........Eugene

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http://www.minelab.com/consumer/page.php?section=284


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Offline goldigger
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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2009, 02:59:15 am »
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olsteffe;

Yes, "jack of all trades, master of none," journyman electronic tech, among others.

That bit about silver, is old thread, In my experience, true Litz wire, whether copper, silver, or copper coated silver is too fine, about no. 40 AWG, therefore, any skin effect gain, will be negated by increased resistance. An unnecessary expense.

Litz wire was very popular in the early days of radio, because being very fine, made less bulky (low frequency, remember) coils, and the beeswax coated cotton wrap enabled "honey-comb" windings that reduced distributed capacitance.

If the company (Minelab??) claiming Litz wire use was truthful, it was a much larger gauge.

Personally, I think it is hype and unnecessary. But it got me thinking about the Hall device,:- a silvered piece of glass (mirror) is an extremely thin sheet of metal and the Hall effect should be greater..... connecting to it could be touchy, or use surface-mount soldering technique... the whole thing in the oven.

goldigger

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Offline olsteffe
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« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2009, 06:14:39 am »
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goldigger
What about conductive glue?
What about unwinding a propylen foil condenser, vapor deposited metalliced foil as thin as you get on a budget.

Steff

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« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2009, 06:30:35 am »
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olesteffe;

You are waxing exotic!

Conductive glue, likely, would not be thin enough and polypropylene capacitors might be a bit small to work with, but hey, how about tin oxide... its used for the elements in LCD stuff, clear and conductive And VERY THIN. Far thinner than pc board copper.

Question is, how is glass (or plastic) coated uniformly...? The old style glass photo plates used a calomel solution, with gelatin and the silver compound, in it. I used to have instructions for making photo plates, just substitute tin oxide, and leave out the gelatin.... or.... use a tin based fungicide?  Funny

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« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2009, 06:56:11 am »
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goldigger
Thought about the glue for connection purposes, not as a substrate  Smiley.
Plastic and optics are covered in vapor depositing ovens, thin as you get it 1/4 the wavelenght of visible light.

Steff

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Offline Eugene52
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« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2009, 12:29:32 pm »
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Quote:Posted by goldigger
olsteffe;

Yes, "jack of all trades, master of none," journyman electronic tech, among others.

That bit about silver, is old thread, In my experience, true Litz wire, whether copper, silver, or copper coated silver is too fine, about no. 40 AWG, therefore, any skin effect gain, will be negated by increased resistance. An unnecessary expense.

Litz wire was very popular in the early days of radio, because being very fine, made less bulky (low frequency, remember) coils, and the beeswax coated cotton wrap enabled "honey-comb" windings that reduced distributed capacitance.

If the company (Minelab??) claiming Litz wire use was truthful, it was a much larger gauge.

Personally, I think it is hype and unnecessary. But it got me thinking about the Hall device,:- a silvered piece of glass (mirror) is an extremely thin sheet of metal and the Hall effect should be greater..... connecting to it could be touchy, or use surface-mount soldering technique... the whole thing in the oven.

goldigger


Hello Goldigger . Minelab stated they are using thin strands of litz wire . They must be winding the litz wire in parallel with the TX and also another separate litz winding with the RX to reduce eddy currents . Why would they use a large bulky litz wire gauge ? To alter the designed impedance of the search-coil ? The Forum is here not here to yank anybody's chain . Keeping an open mind is how we learn . Sometimes bizarre designs opens doors to new technology !!!! If Somebody were to take a Commander coil and open it up and there was no small Litz wire windings , That would make Minelab look pretty STUPID !!! I am not here to yank anybodies chain , I learn new things everyday . I thought very fine litz wire had high resistance/impedance . We need more comments here on this Great Topic from everyone !!! Thank-You Goldigger and Olsteffe . It would be nice to see the inside of a "Commander search-coil" . Best Regards............Eugene


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« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2009, 01:30:14 am »
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Eugene52;

Well I think you should re-read what I said, and think about it.

It defeats the purpose of using silver for greater conductivity and going to Litz wire, it never occurred to me they might use  the litz wire in parallel, which is a bit strange, also. It would take 4 multistrands, in parallel to equal a solid strand of double the gauge/thickness..... simple physics. Just like a garden hose, it takes 4 of .375 inch hoses to equal one .75 inch hose, for flow. The garden hose (Litz wire) has 4 times the friction head (resistance) of the .75 inch hose. Go figure.

Multiplying the parallel strands of Litz wire might have an advantage, in reducing skin effect, at higher frequencies, question is, at what frequency does it become requisite to counter skin effect?? Most  VLF detectors operate within the audible range of frequencies, at which skin effect is negligible or zero.

I will repeat it as many times as it takes.

Has that company said WHAT size of wire was replaced with Litz wire? I dont think so, at any rate, they should have replaced it with a multistrand wire, of equivalent gauge or resistance, to what they had before.

I still say the statement is advertising HYPE and I thought there was FREE speech being touted, on this forum, therefore I am entitled to my opinion without being berated by a moderator.

Do not try to instruct me in electronics, free speech... OR physics.

goldiggger



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« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2009, 05:03:57 am »
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Hi all, I just returned from a trip to the middle of nowhere (didn't have internet), but I see you've continued without me. Cool

It looks like a lot of good theory has been posted, I'll have to experiment with it.
In my original post I was only thinking about solid silver wire, not Litz, but it seems I got more then I bargained for when I ask the question. I really like the sound of vapor deposited metalliced foil, but seeing as I don't have an oven for that it's probably out of reach.

Either way I still have to finish building a detector before exploring alternative ideas.
But please keep them coming, I've been writing them down.

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Offline Eugene52
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« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2009, 01:45:11 pm »
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Quote:Posted by goldigger
Eugene52;

Well I think you should re-read what I said, and think about it.

It defeats the purpose of using silver for greater conductivity and going to Litz wire, it never occurred to me they might use  the litz wire in parallel, which is a bit strange, also. It would take 4 multistrands, in parallel to equal a solid strand of double the gauge/thickness..... simple physics. Just like a garden hose, it takes 4 of .375 inch hoses to equal one .75 inch hose, for flow. The garden hose (Litz wire) has 4 times the friction head (resistance) of the .75 inch hose. Go figure.

Multiplying the parallel strands of Litz wire might have an advantage, in reducing skin effect, at higher frequencies, question is, at what frequency does it become requisite to counter skin effect?? Most  VLF detectors operate within the audible range of frequencies, at which skin effect is negligible or zero.

I will repeat it as many times as it takes.

Has that company said WHAT size of wire was replaced with Litz wire? I dont think so, at any rate, they should have replaced it with a multistrand wire, of equivalent gauge or resistance, to what they had before.

I still say the statement is advertising HYPE and I thought there was FREE speech being touted, on this forum, therefore I am entitled to my opinion without being berated by a moderator.

Do not try to instruct me in electronics, free speech... OR physics.

goldiggger




Hello Goldigger and Everyone . Here are several links explaining the use of Litz wire: As you can all see , Litz wire is being used by other manufacturers not just Minelab. And from what I am researching Litz can be many other types of conducters like silver plated copper , even gold plated copper . I believe many Metal Detector manufacturers are currently designing and testing  Litz wire prototypes for both VLF and PI search coils .

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http://www.wikipatents.com/gb/2253057.html


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http://www.kellycodetectors.com/accessories/commandercoils.htm


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http://www.nqminersden.com/Commander.htm


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http://www.arizonaoutback.com/aboutnf.html


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http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4890064.html


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http://www.goldbummin.com/detector-coils.html


I will post more information later on this "Great Topic" . Thank-You again for everyone for the "Technical/Electronics" contributions here !!
HH and Best Regards.............Eugene

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Offline Eugene52
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« Reply #19 on: August 17, 2009, 09:48:44 pm »
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Quote:Posted by Allodium
Hi all, I just returned from a trip to the middle of nowhere (didn't have internet), but I see you've continued without me. Cool

It looks like a lot of good theory has been posted, I'll have to experiment with it.
In my original post I was only thinking about solid silver wire, not Litz, but it seems I got more then I bargained for when I ask the question. I really like the sound of vapor deposited metalliced foil, but seeing as I don't have an oven for that it's probably out of reach.

Either way I still have to finish building a detector before exploring alternative ideas.
But please keep them coming, I've been writing them down.


Hello Allodium . Glad you made it back to the Forum . What you stated on your post "exploring alternative ideas" , that is what Thunting.com Forum is all about . Those choices of different products/Technology will help everyone reach their Treasure Hunting/Metal Detecting  Goals . When 10 Forum Members answer a question you always get more than one answer , or like you said "Alternative Ideas" ......... After you build your Metal Detector Circuit you will then have to make a choice on what search-coil to make , a Concentric or DD configuration ? Will it have Litz wire or not ? As time goes by on this forum we will eventually have "VLF and PI projects" that are micro-processor or even DSP controlled .
HH.......Regards........Eugene


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