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Offline hardluckTopic starter
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« on: February 20, 2012, 05:46:10 pm »
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Hello All

You have all proberly heard this story by now. but intereting all the same.

The follng article from Yahoo News

A team of salvage divers has discovered an unexplained object resting at the bottom of the Baltic Sea near Sweden.
 
"This thing turned up. My first reaction was to tell the guys that we have a UFO here on the bottom," said Peter Lindberg, the leader of the amateur treasure hunters.
 
Sonar readings show that the mysterious object is about 60 meters across, or, about the size of a jumbo jet. And it's not alone. Nearby on the sea floor is another, smaller object with a similar shape. Even more fascinating, both objects have "drag marks" behind them on the sea floor, stretching back more than 400 feet.
 
"Could this be the Star Wars Millenium Falcon, a plug to an inner world or a marine version of Stonehenge?" asks CNN's Brooke Bowman:

Well, it could just be another shipwreck. Or, mud.
 
But Lindberg says the ship theory doesn't really hold up because of the unusually large size of the objects. "Of course it would be something from another ship but it's quite big," he told CNN. Lindberg notes that some observers have speculated that the objects may be Russian warships built around the end of the 1800's. However, Lindberg points out that not only were those ships much smaller, they were not patrolling the Baltic during that era.
 
The Baltic Sea is a literal treasure trove for salvage teams and a "shipwreck laboratory" for researchers. The sea's low salinity levels help preserve objects that sink to the bottom. "Right now, we know about 20,000 objects, mostly shipwrecks, in the Baltic Sea. But I think there may be more than 100,000," said sonar expert Ardreas Olsson, "I'm not sure what you will see when you go down. But I'm excited. It's going to be interesting to see what it is."
 
The Ocean Explorer team first made their find back in August and had no plans to return to the scene. For now, Lindberg is waiting for calmer waters in the Baltic, possibly in May, before taking his salvage team to the bottom for a closer look at the mysterious objects. They originally had no plans to return to the spot, but the spike in interest from the public has led them to begin planning a return to site.




Could all this hype could just be the remains of a Russian ship?

2 ships was designed as gun platforms in the 1870's by the Russian imperial navy. They were uncontrollable and eventually deleted from naval service. Could the circular wreck on the bottom of the Baltic be on of these ships?

Hardluck



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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 01:21:48 pm »
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Can't wait to see what these turn out to be. The gun platforms sound like the most likely suspects, although there seems to be a size discrepancy. Who knows how many were actually built in secret though. I can see a ship like that sinking like a falling leaf which could account for the drag marks if it hit the bottom basically flat but with inertia.

Question is why would they be that far out to sea? They don't look stable enough for open water travel, which of course could be why they are at the bottom (if it is the gun platforms...)

It would be a lot more fun if it was something else though!  Grin

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Offline hardluckTopic starter
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« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 04:03:29 pm »
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Hello Idaho Jones

I remember in the Cold War there was rumors of Russian Soviet underwater craft exploring underwater the fiords of Norway and also in the Baltic in Swedish waters. Sweden Defence Force detected a mystery underwater object also used depth charges on a mystery object back in the 1980's. Russia kept quiet at the time...

Maybe it was one of their underwater spycraft was sunk?

Hardluck

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Offline CptEvil
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2012, 03:07:30 am »
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Interesting story!

It’s true that the Soviet Union had some submarine activities in the archipelagos of Sweden during the cold war. The most obvious example is from 1981 when the submarine U137 went on ground outside the city of Karlskrona.

The submarine was stuck for some time, and there was an indication of it carrying nuclear weapons. The marine forces were ready to storm it, but in the last minute the operation was called off by higher source. One can only assume that there was a higher political game in control.

After this, the submarine fever broke out. People saw submarines in every bay. There were also rumors about entire submarine bases on the bottom of the Baltic Sea. But, there were also serious hunts off suspected trespassing of the Swedish boarder, where sink-bombs and mines were used, launched from helicopters and ships. The hunt was however strangely unsuccessful. Maybe again the sensitive relation with ‘the big red’ may have played a game, it’s not sure a hit submarine would be public information.

U137 was 56 meter long and about 7 meter wide.

// Cpt


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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2012, 07:14:26 am »
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Hello CaptEvil

Very Interesting...

I did not realise how many alleged incursions into Swedish territory over the years.

1962: During a military exercise, a submarine is discovered by radar echo and hydrophone, north of Fårö at Gotland. It retreats only after repeated depth charge strikes.

1969: During a Navy drill on the coast of Norrland, the Swedish submarine Springaren comes into contact with a foreign submarine in Swedish waters; it leaves the scene.

1974: A submarine periscope is spotted by the Coast Guard near Kappelhamnsviken on Gotland. A destroyer is sent to the scene and establishes contact, at which point the foreign submarine leaves Swedish waters.

1976: During a marine drill in the Stockholm Archipelago, a Soviet Type W submarine exposes itself by using radar, outside Swedish territorial waters. A Swedish submarine monitors the Soviet vessel entering Swedish waters, and records sounds from it. When Swedish submarine-hunting helicopters and destroyers arrive, it speeds out towards international waters and disappears.

1980: The Swedish Marine tugboat Ajax discovers the turret of a submarine outside Utö in the Stockholm Archipelago. Submarine hunting helicopters are dispatched to the scene, establish contact, and fire warning shots. The submarine does not leave the area, but attempts to avoid capture, and a prolonged submarine hunt began. This lasted for several weeks, during which time the submarine is repeatedly sighted.

1981: The U 137 incident. On the evening of October 28, 1981, a fisherman residing in the eastern part of the Karlskrona archipelago phoned in to the Coast Guard and reported that a submarine had capsized in Gåsefjärden, 30 km from the town centre of Karlskrona. Originally, it was not taken seriously because of its location, as Gåsefjärden is a very difficult terrain to navigate in, as well as being a "dead end". Nevertheless, the fisherman was right, and the vessel was found to be of Soviet origin. The grounded submarine generated intense media interest, and Swedish military forces were put on high alert following suspicions that the Soviet Union would try to recapture the vessel. After several rounds of interrogation, the conservative/Liberal government led by Thorbjörn Fälldin decided to release both the vessel and its crew. This marked the beginning of the "submarine hunts" (ubåtsjakter), as nicknamed by Swedish media.

1982: The Hårsfjärden incident. After a long period of submarine incidents, the Swedish navy sets a trap by sealing off an area with mines and sensors. A foreign submarine is then recognized to have entered the trap, and the Navy responds in force with major forces stationed nearby. A reported 44 depth charges and 4 naval mines are detonated, trying to sink the submarine, but it is later determined that it avoided the trap or fled at an early stage. This incident triggers the appointment of a parliamentary committee under the leadership of Sven Andersson, which—partly due to the efforts of Carl Bildt—blames the Soviet Union, thereby escalating tension with Moscow. Later research has cast doubt on many of the conclusions of the committee, with some of the sound recordings from the purported submarine now believed to have come from a civilian ship.The entire incident is now hotly disputed, with some arguing the submarine may have been of NATO origin.

1983: A suspected submarine is reported in Törefjärden, North of Luleå, and mines are detonated.

1983: Submarine hunt outside Sundsvall. Helicopters establish contact with a foreign submarine, but are unable to fire, reportedly because civilian journalists have entered the safety area.

1983: Submarine hunt in Töreviken.

1983: Submarine hunt in the harbor area of Karlskrona and in the adjoining archipelago. Depth charges are fired inside Karlskrona harbor.

1984: Another submarine hunt in Karlskrona. 22 depth charges are fired against a suspected submarine.

1986: A "mysterious object" is reported "diving into the water" in Klintehamnsviken on Gotland. The sea floor is examined, and double-track trace is discovered, allegedly from a submarine vehicle, extending 1100 meters.

1987: Another submarine hunt in Törefjärden.

1987: While examining the magnetic sensors of a minefield in Kappelshamnsviken on Gotland, the military discovers "clear traces on the bottom from a tracked submarine vehicle".

1988: A suspected foreign submarine is noticed in Hävringebukten outside Oxelösund. Submarine sounds and air venting is said to have been recorded.

2011: A possible foreign submarine is noticed in Baggensfjärden in Nacka. The Swedish Armed Forces' Naval Tactical intelligence service, MTS-M2 investigated the incident. Later it was confirmed that the object was really a raft frozen in moving ice.

2011: An eyewitness contacts the Swedish armed forces after seeing something outside the harbor of Gotenburg that possibly could have been a foreign submarine. The Swedish navy deployed several surface warships in an attempt to locate the unknown object.

This 1986 and 1987 incidents about a submarine tracked vehicle I find interesting. What type of track submarine vehicle did the Soviets have?

Hardluck

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« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 07:17:00 am by hardluck »
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Offline wuzneme
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« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2012, 06:55:33 am »
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hi,

Iron ore was high in demand by the germans,
Admittedly this is a long shot but could the vessels mentioned have something to do with the carrying of this cargo for the war efforts of germany?

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http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/invasion_of_norway_1940.htm


Posted on: February 29, 2012, 06:33:08 AM
This is just another link for more details already mentioned by Hardluck


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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_monitor_Novgorod


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Offline hardluckTopic starter
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« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2012, 05:40:40 am »
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Hello Wuzneme

Thanks for the links.

Hardluck

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« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2012, 07:12:49 am »
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Hi,

Found a report about this (in Swedish) which discusses the possible submarine-vehicles, and shows some of the tracks found. (See

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http://www.prio.no/upload/people/ola_tunander/Kapitel%203.pdf
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Over the years several submarine-vehicles have existed. The Germans had the Seeteufel (the sea devil) in 1944. In more recent time, there seem to be a use of this kind of machines when placing cables under water. The report doesn’t point out any Soviet ones, but briefly assumes they existed.

Personally I don’t understand the use of these in military operations, a floating submarine must be so much easier to use, but apparently they exist. Interesting subject and fun play with the imagination what else could be down there! =)

//Cpt


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« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2012, 07:42:39 am »
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Hello Cpt

Great post.

 Interesting concept but I agree I cannot see the value of an underwater tracked vehicle either. But perhaps it was all a game during the cold war? The soviets testing out different underwater technology in Swedish waters to see if it could be detected by naval forces?

Interesting mystery all the same.

Hardluck

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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2012, 07:37:16 pm »
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Wow very interesting reading all Smiley

I think I can provide a possible answer on the worth of a tracked submarine. One of the tricks to avoiding sonar in extreme circumstances that I have heard of is to go to ground. Apparently it's much harder to distinguish a vessel from a natural feature on the seabed.

I might be wrong but the whole concept of subs is to sneak about.



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