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Offline crowsnest1Topic starter
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« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2006, 02:30:36 pm »
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Hi M4W.

Yes, you are correct, I wrote the story and only noticed the error after I posted it!!

I have done the same thing on a number of occassions, although in the main 99.9%, of my stories are accurate.
My apologies on this error.

Incidentally, welcome aboard the forum.
Best wishes, Crowsnest

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Offline mad4wrecks
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« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2006, 04:38:48 pm »
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Thanks for the warm welcome folks!

yeah, that (Hispaniola) kind of jumped out at me, although I knew you knew what you meant!

 Grin

I look forward to learning more from this forum.

Tom

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« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2006, 10:35:36 pm »
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Hello Tom,

thansk again for letting me know about Tony Wells. I have just received an e-mail from him and it's been very good as I had been looking for him for several months now. Thanks!

Regards,

Christian

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« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2006, 10:51:13 am »
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Quote:Posted by mad4wrecks
Hispaniola was Dominican Republic, Haiti, not CUBA

 Grin


GOOD EYE! Grin

KEEP ON POSTIN IF YOU WILL Grin

THEM WET SUITS HURT MY BALLS~HATE WHEN THAT HAPPENS! Grin

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« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2006, 02:08:09 pm »
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Hi M4W,
Thought you might find the following article of some interest?
Best wishes Crowsnest.

THE 1715 FLEET DISASTER
by  John DeBry
Compiled from HRDnews:
Vol. 1, No. 2, 3, 4, 5, & 6 Vol. 2, No. 2, 3, & 4
(with permission)





The Prelude

      Every year, two fleets traveled between Spain and the Americas; the Esquadron de Terra Firme from Spain to South America, and the Flota de  Nova Espana toward Vera Cruz. Sometimes, these two fleets would travel  together all the way to the Caribbean. The return voyage was more  dangerous. The galleons were fully loaded with precious cargoes of gold, silver, jewelry, tobacco, spices, indigo, cochineal etc.? The crews were tired  and often plagued by health problems brought on by tropical diseases,  malnutrition, and deplorable hygienic conditions on board. These conditions made ships even more vulnerable to attacks by pirates, but the greatest danger came from an uncontrollable element; the weather. The general weather  conditions were more favorable during the summer months. The waters of the Atlantic Ocean were calmer, and the prevailing winds gentler. However, the  very warm waters of the South Atlantic contributed to unstable weather, and  the then unpredictable rapid development of violent and devastating tropical  storms called hurricanes.

       As a result of France?s Louis XIV policies of expansionism, Europe was  ravaged by two major wars, between 1688 and 1715. These wars disrupted  trade between the Americas and the Old continent, and Spain, highly dependent on the riches of the New World to finance her own policies of   expansionism in Europe, suffered greatly. The first of these wars, the War of  the Grand Alliance, ended in 1697 with the Treaty of Ryswick, but in 1701 another broke out, this time over the succession of the Spanish crown. Charles II had died childless, but on his deathbed, had named as his heir Philip, the grandson of Louis XIV of France. Leopold I, the Holy Roman emperor, who  wanted to see his son, Archduke Charles, ascend the throne, did not kindly  receive this decision. Leopold also wanted to prevent at all cost any close  alliance between France and Spain. War broke out, with England and the  Dutch on one side, and Spain, France, Portugal, Bavaria, and Savoy on the other.

     The seas and oceans became the scene of naval battles and vicious  encounters between merchant vessels and privateers. The sea routes between Spain and the Americas were no longer safe, and the vital flow of New World  treasure was practically stopped. Things were going badly for young Philip V and his kingdom. In the year 1702 Spain received a tremendous blow when a  large English naval force entered Vigo Bay, on the northwestern coast of  Spain. An all-out battle ensued, with the English fleet sinking a large number of war ships, capturing others, and seizing a large treasure. The English sank another Spanish treasure fleet in 1708, off Cartagena, Columbia, and in 1711 another one of Philip?s treasure fleets was destroyed by a hurricane off the coast of Cuba. The War of Succession was finally ended in 1715 by a series of treaties known as the Peace of Utrecht. The treaty between England and  France confirmed Philip V?s succession to the throne of Spain, while Philip  renounced his rights to the French throne. England was given Newfoundland,  the island of St. Christopher, and the Hudson Bay territory. Although the war  had ended, the peace was an uneasy one, and much friction remained  between the former foes.

        At the end of this period of hostilities, Spain was in dire need of financial  relief. At the King?s order, a fleet was dispatched to America in order to bring  back urgently needed gold and silver, which had been accumulating during the  war. The eleven ships making up the fleet assembled in Havana in the  summer of 1715. The fleet was made up of the Esquadron de Terra Firme, which served South American trade routes out of Cartagena, and of the Flota  de Nova Espana which served the trade of Mexico and Manilla Galleons out  of Vera Cruz, on the southeastern coast of present-day Mexico. The Griffon, a French merchant ship under the command of Capitaine Antoine Dare, was given permission to sail with the Spanish combined fleet. Now, every one was   busy getting ready for the long and treacherous journey back to Spain.  Additional cargo was being loaded. Inventories were taken. Fresh water and  food items were placed aboard each ship. After a two year delay, the mighty  Plate Fleet was ready to sail home to Spain.

  The Storm

         The Squadron of Tierra Firma was under the command of Captain-General Don Antonio de Escheverz y Zubiza, and consisted of six vessels. The Capitana-General was indirect command of the Capitana, the flagship, which  was a captured English ship formerly named the Hampton Court, and was  laden with a great number of chests of silver coins, gold coins, gold bars, gold dust, and jewelry, as well as tropical products. The flagship of the admiral, the Almiranta, was equally richly laden. The Nuestra Senora de la Concepcion  carried gold coins and gold bars, as well as a number of chests of silver coins.  The frigate San Miguel, the El Ciervo, and a patache, a smaller merchant vessel, completed the squadron.

        The five ships of the New Spain Flota were under the general command of  Captain-General Don Juan Esteban de Ubilla. Juan Esteban de Ubilla was himself on the Capitana, which carried some thirteen hundred chests containing 3,000,000 silver coins. There were also gold coins, gold bars, silver   bars, and jewelry, as well as emeralds, pearls, and precious K?ang-Hsi Chinese porcelain which had been brought to Mexico by the Manila Galleons.  The Almiranta carried nearly a thousand chests of silver coins, each individual chest containing some 3,000 coins. The Refuerzo carried eighty-one chests of  silver coins and over fifty chests of worked silver. Another ship, a patache, carried some 44,000 pieces of eight. One frigate helped complete the Flota. The French ship Griffon, commanded by Captain Antoine Dar, had received  permission to sail with the fleet. In his 1975 book, "The Funnel of Gold", historian Mendel Peterson estimated the value of the registered cargo of the combined fleet at 7,000,000 pieces of eight, which represented a real value of  about $86 million (1975) of our money.

        The fleet had suffered many delays, and had been sitting idle for nearly two  years. Pressure had been mounting for the fleet to sail. The Spanish crown  was in dire need of money; so were merchants been unable to make  their exotic goods available for sale on the European market. Under this  tremendous pressure, Ubilla made the decision to start the long and perilous voyage back to the Old World, even though the hurricane season had long  begun. This decision would prove to be fatal, for unknown to the Spaniards a  tremendous and exceptionally powerful hurricane was brewing to the  southeast of Cuba. The great treasure fleet of 1715 sailed from Havana  harbor in the early morning of July 24th, a beautiful and calm day, with a  gentle breeze to help the ships find the Florida Current which ran north and up  the Straits of Florida. Slowly and smoothly the ships of Ubilla?s fleet gently  followed the East coast of Florida, staying far enough away from the shore to take advantage of the Gulf Stream, and stay clear of the treacherous shoals and reef formations which fringed the Florida coast. For the first five days the voyage was uneventful with the weather remaining good and giving no indication whatsoever of the rapidly approaching killer storm. But on July 29th, long swells started to appear, coming from the southeast. The atmosphere  became heavy with moisture with the sun shining brightly through the haze. A gentle breeze still blew and the sea was smooth, but the swells started to make the ship gently dip and roll. Experienced navigators, pilots, and old hands started to be concerned. They knew that these were the early signs of an  impending tropical storm.

       The storm was traveling north, almost due east of the convoy, but still many  many miles away. The storm had reached alarming intensity with winds at the center of the storm now reaching one hundred miles per hour. By nightfall the hurricane had made a drastic change in course, suddenly veering directly to the west. On the morning of July 30th, along the east coast of Florida, just south of Cape Canaveral, winds had begun to pick up and by midday had  increased to well over 20 knots, and the sea was rapidly building up. By late afternoon winds had increased to over thirty knots, and the waves were reaching twenty feet. Ubilla?s fleet was relentlessly driven closer and closer to shore. The Captain General gave the order that all ships head into the wind in order to stay well clear of the reef and shoals, but the attempt was marginally successful. The velocity of the wind kept increasing, and by midnight, the ships were barely under control. Around 4 a.m. on July 31st, the hurricane struck the doomed ships with all its might, driving one ship after another on the deadly  jagged reefs. The ships broke up like wooden toys. Ubilla?s Capitana disintegrated, crushed on the reef like matchsticks. Almost all aboard were killed, including Captain General Ubilla. The entire fleet was lost, and of the some twenty five hundred persons aboard various ships, over one thousand perished. Contrary to previous accounts by various historians, there is no historical evidence to indicate that the Griffon survived the terrible storm, and we can assume that it was lost, as were the two other ships of the 1715 fleet, around the shoals of Cape Canaveral.

       For those who had miraculously survived, the ordeal was just beginning. They were stranded in an inhospitable land, infested with disease-carrying mosquitoes, rattle snakes, wild animals, and hostile Indians, far from any settlement, without food, fresh water, or badly needed medical supplies. When daylight came on that dreadful morning of July 31st, 1715, the full extent of the disaster could then be seen. The beaches of la Florida were littered with wreckage and bodies, and the survivors of this human tragedy were trying to comprehend what had happened to them. They were attempting to find their actual location. As the ships had wrecked at different locations, and were separated by sometimes several miles, it was impossible for the survivors to fully assess the extent of the disaster. They were stranded in this inhospitable land without food, water, or much needed medical supplies. Many were dying each day, adding to the already devastating number of casualties. Admiral Don Francisco Salmon undertook to immediately survey the extent of the damage. After observing that all ships had been wrecked, he decided, on August 6th, to send Nicolas de India, Ubilla?s pilot, and 18 men, in a launch  toward the island of Cuba, to give the alert, and to send a personal message to the governor, the Marques de Casatorres. It took ten days for the small boat to reach Havana. The alert had been given.

        Within a few days several ships were leaving Havana harbor, loaded with emergency supplies, salvage equipment, government officials and soldiers, on their way to the East Coast of Florida. Salvage was to begin as soon as the relief expedition reached the survivors camps. Success came early as salvage sloops dragged the ocean floor for wreckage and quickly brought up chests of  coins, as well as jewelry and gold. The Havana salvage Flotta was soon joined by Florida ships sent from St. Augustine to help in the recovery effort. By early September such was the success of the salvage team that Admiral Salmon wrote the governor asking him to send 25 soldiers and ammunition to guard the King?s gold.

         By the time the weather and sea conditions had become unsuitable for continuing salvage, in late October of the same year, over 5,000,000 pieces of eight had been recovered along with gold and jewelry, and a great part of the King?s treasure. Although salvage was essentially completed, efforts  continued well into 1718.  News of the disaster had swept the Americas and Europe much like the news  of the Market crash would some 220 years later, and privateers, pirates and  looters converged toward Palmar de Ayes (near present day Sebastian, Florida) like ravenous vultures. Early in January 1716, pirate Henry Jennings aboard his well armed sloop, the 40-ton Barsheba, and John Wills aboard his 35-ton Eagle, both having been commissioned by governor Hamilton of  Jamaica, attacked the Spanish salvage camp at Palmar de Ays, and detained  the defenders (no casualties were reported) while looting the camp. They made off with some 120,000 pieces of eight and other valuables, as well as two bronze cannon and two large iron guns. When the Spaniards abandoned the salvage camp in 1718, great treasure still remained on the ocean floor. Some of the wreck sites were clearly marked by portions of the ships structures which could be observed protruding above water at low tide. For years after the official completion of the salvage operation, merchant ships sailing these waters would fish for treasure.

        Little by little the sites faded from memory and the great 1715 Spanish Plate Fleet would eventually be forgotten and left undisturbed for nearly 250 years. In 1960 the modern age of treasure salvage was ushered in by Real Eight Corporation. Their recoveries from the 1715 fleet are legendary and are told in detail in the books listed in the bibliography.  Years later other companies like Treasure Salvors, HRD Inc, and Wreckovery Salvage would  continue to recover what seems to be a never ending trail of treasure from these shipwrecks.
 
 

   

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Offline Christian
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« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2006, 03:51:27 pm »
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That's been a really amazing post! Thanks for sharing it with us Kevin!

Regards,

Christian

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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2006, 02:26:51 pm »
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Yeah Kevin, I enjoyed that post quite a bit-it came from my website!

 :Smiley

Regards, Tom

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« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2006, 02:41:55 pm »
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Hi Tom,

Well, in that case you already know, how good an article it is!
It must be part of a splinter!, as it is on a page listed as 1715 Fleet.


PS. I am at present researching an English East India wreck, "True Briton", of 1200tons.
She sank in the China Sea circa 1812-1813, her cargo was precious gems, so far I have been able to close her position as 2miles south of the island-Paolo Zapati.
This island is one of three-The Catwyck islands, the other two islands which make up this group, are Grande and Petite Catwyck.

Regards Kevin--By the way your site is awesome Cheers!

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« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2006, 06:15:22 am »
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Great info Kevin and good luck on your research...Smiley

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« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2006, 07:15:57 am »
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Cheers Toolbox,

With reference to the "True Briton", I am working in partnership with a Newspaper and an Archaeological, sub aqua outfit based in Portugal.
This wreck has not been salvaged so far, I just hope we can locate her.

Although recovery will not be easy, as she lies in approximately 25 fathoms and is no doubt covered by a good few feet of silt, our main problem is getting permission, the Vietnamese, Phillipines and China all have claims to the various island groups in this region........so it could be quite a political hot potato!.

As if that wasn't enough to contend with, she also lies slap bang in the middle of an oilfield............in an area which was heavily mined.....the explosive type!!

So,  "ENDEAVOR TO PERSEVERE"!!..........(Indian chief---Film,Outlaw Josie Wales).

Regards kevin.

Ps. I have enclosed a copy, of minutes of evidence, From the House of Lords, where they are examining/questioning a Captain Maxwell, who had 25 years service, with the English East India company,it makes fascinating reading!!
 
 603]
Do you consider The East India Company's Mode of chartering Ships as economical?
No.
In what respect?
In illustrating why I conceive it not to be economical, it will be necessary to go into a little more than the chartering;-it is the Application of the Trade after getting Possession of it, as well as the Mode of taking the Ships up. I beg to state why I consider it not economical. If the Company confine their Trade with China to a Class of Ships with which there is no Competition in the British Market, it is quite clear these Ships are built expressly for their Trade, and being inapplicable to any other, it reduces the Competitors in the Market in their Employment, and consequently augments the Expence. But to say that they don't conduct their Trade economically, I might go to the Mode of loading their Ships. Those large Ships are taken up at the high Rate of Freight at which the Company have been hiring them during the War, say at Forty-four Pounds and Fifty-five Pounds per Ton, which for many Years were sent from India to China; not above One Half were laden on the Company's Account; from Bombay to China not unfrequently above Two Fifths laden on the Company's Account; the remaining Three Fifths became the Emolument of the Commander, who received on board Cotton from Bombay, and carried it into the China Market, and met The East India Company in their own Market. I can't consider that an economical Way of employing a Ship, taking it at such a Rate of Freight.
If a different Mode of contracting for Ships were pursued, you conceive there would be a Saving in the Commercial Expenditure of the Company?
Undoubtedly; inasmuch as Tonnage, I conceive, might be had at about Ten Pounds per Ton to and from China. If the Ships of the Country, generally called A. at Lloyd's, were engaged instead of these large expensive Ships, I conceive a Saving might be made of between ?500,000 and ?700,000 a Voyage on the whole of the Ships engaged at one Period in The East India Company's Service, imagining that they all made One Voyage. I take the whole of the Ships at one Period in the Employment of the Company; but they don't all make One Voyage in the Year; some of them are out, and some of them are at home, and some on their Passage; some fitting out: I am taking the whole of the Ships engaged. It is with reference to a Statement I laid before the Court of Proprietors, describing the Rate at which their Ships were taken out; my Observation applies to what is founded on that Data. If they all made One Voyage, such a Sum would be saved. It would be a very considerable Saving, for the larger Ships are taken up as high as Twenty-six Pounds per Ton; if a Ship could be had at Ten Pounds per Ton, the Saving would be enormous.
Do you conceive there is any Disadvantage, in a Commercial point of view, in fitting up The East India Company's Ships in the expensive Way they are, partly for Commercial Purposes and partly for Warlike Purposes?
No; I can't consider the Advantage to be derived from the Mode of equipping them commensurate with the increased Expence attending it.
Can you state an Instance of a China Ship being lost at Sea?
I remember a Ship called the "True Briton," that was never heard of, on her Voyage from Bombay to China. But it may be as well to state that a Ship that leaves China, as the Company's Ships do, laden with Tea-the finest and the lightest Cargo in the World-must be a wretchedly bad Ship if she can't make a Voyage to Europe at the Season of the Year the most favourable of all others. There is an Instance of one, "The Ganges," which was lost on the Return Voyage; that was a 1,200 Ton Ship. A Tea Cargo is perhaps better adapted for rendering a Ship safe than any other that can be put on board a Ship.
Are not Articles exported to China less bulky than those imported from China?
I believe The East India Company export very little to China, and what they do I don't suppose occupies One Third of the Tonnage of the Ship altogether. The Freight is of great Value, whether occupied or not; but they export Articles of great Value.

From: 'Affairs of the East India Company: Minutes of evidence: 17 June 1830', Journal of the House of Lords: volume 62: 1830, pp. 1130-136. URL:

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