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Offline aussie
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« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2009, 05:28:23 am »
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                          All I hope is the guy that found the treasure and the farmer get the proper value of the treasure .and not get ripped off      There was a case not long ago ,where the museum valued a find at $20000 and so the finder got a second valuer and the price went up to $200000 in the end his treasure ended up selling far more than that .  There was an inquiry as to why the museum under valued the find so low ?   
                          And it is obvious to anyone with 1/2 a brain to work that one out .
                        There was a statement by someone in the museum that at least the scrap metal value was $100000.  hope that is not downplaying the treasures real value .  By British law all treasure that fits a (certain criteria) has to be sold to the museum at the price they value it at , any treasure the museum is not interested in can be sold on the open market by the finder
 

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« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 05:59:48 am by aussie »
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« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2009, 08:51:42 am »
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museums valueing things low reminds me of a story i read here or some other site about people working in what they called a thrift store, i call charity shop, where they get to value the pieces of (treasure) to buy themselves, they undervalue things for themselves to buy!!

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« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2009, 09:24:32 am »
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I figured that since the find was first made in July, it wasn't reported until September because they were busy searching and documenting the rest of the area until everyone was satisfied that all the treasure had been found.  They didn't need hoards of the public running around with metal detectors!

The articles that have come out in the press make it sound like only the British museums are permitted to bid on the collection, rather than having a public auction.  If that is the case, it seems very likely that the museums will keep the "valuation" very low, and it's true value will remain unknown. Huh?

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« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2009, 12:51:38 am »
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Quote:Posted by joe90
museums valueing things low reminds me of a story i read here or some other site about people working in what they called a thrift store, i call charity shop, where they get to value the pieces of (treasure) to buy themselves, they undervalue things for themselves to buy!!


Hey! What a pessimistic view! The local Sally-Ann has dirt cheap stuff and I have NEVER seen the volunteer ladies buy so much as a book, even. I do not know how they value it, but in this case, it is often priced right at the cash register, so that would tend to throw that theory to the dogs.

BackAtcha; I understand the museum is the ONLY bidder, so there would never be an auction and the system uses an independent appraiser, just how independent is not certain.

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« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2009, 10:46:24 am »
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Yeah, so who bankrolls the appraiser?  I'm curious about this one.

And what happens if the museum makes their offer, and the finder says, "no thanks?"  Can he then go find other potential buyers?

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« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2009, 12:35:10 am »
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Quote:Posted by BackAtcha
Yeah, so who bankrolls the appraiser?  I'm curious about this one.

And what happens if the museum makes their offer, and the finder says, "no thanks?"  Can he then go find other potential buyers?


How do you mean *bankroll*, for instance, a property appraiser gets a fee, which has been established for some time, prior to the request for services... any appraiser that just sits waiting for a treasure find, is going to starve to death. Obviously the appraiser appraises for anyone, not just the museum. Probably paid by the gov.

As I understand it, anything declared *treasure trove,* belongs to the crown and the finder does not have the option of refusing the appraisal. He is supposed to get paid a *fair* appraisal amount, but he could, probably object and get an additional appraisal? I do not know.

Somebody should know.... we just have to wait.

I do know, here, if you want to buy a property, and the bank says you need an appraisal, YOU pay for it, not the bank. (But I do not think they would add insult to injury and make the finder pay the appraisal fee!) Mind you, if the bank did pay, they would attach it to the mortgage, somehow, and you would pay anyway.

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« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2009, 04:57:21 am »
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As I understand it, anything declared *treasure trove,* belongs to the crown and the finder does not have the option of refusing the appraisal. He is supposed to get paid a *fair* appraisal amount, but he could, probably object and get an additional appraisal? I do not know.

You are right goldigger in fact years ago a certain Eric Laws was the center of a huge treasure trove find. He was expected to get much more than what he ended up with and it left a bad taste in the mouths and minds of many English detectorists who felt that Eric Laws had been cheated.

There was a time when the establishment and its so called academics hated detectorists because they did not have any control over them.  My My My how things have changed now you have to report to BIG BROTHER, the English establishment, anything of value.  These so called Legal grave robbers and rag and bone specialists have been given too much power and they know nothing about real British History which makes them ignorant thieves.
I dont think anyone who found anything of value ever challenged the opinion of the valuations or if they did were successfull.  However I stand corrected if proved wrong.  Wise

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« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2009, 06:54:47 am »
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Hello Allen and Golddigger

The British treasure trove system does have its faults. You can appeal a decision on the fair appraisal amount. But most finders are a little intimidated when dealing with the crown.

That said there are many other countries treasure trove laws that are appallingly unfair. I know of an person who recovered some gold bullion  from a 1850's shipwreck that archeologists were officially not interested in. The person I knew handed in the treasure he found during an general amnesty under the historic ship wreck act.

There was a lot of huffing and puffing and patting him on his back for his honesty. News of the find made the 6pm news, by the 9pm news the story was pulled from the air.

Weeks later the finder inquired about a reward for his efforts and they flatly denied an existence of such a treasure. And to really rub his nose in it they read him the penalties in which he could be liable for in violation of the historic shipwreck act.

No one has ever seen or heard of treasure ever again. Interestingly enough the Maritime museum had a multiple million dollar extensions a couple of months later.

Hardluck  Angry

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« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2009, 07:55:58 am »
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Quote:Posted by hardluck
Hello Allen and Golddigger

The British treasure trove system does have its faults. You can appeal a decision on the fair appraisal amount. But most finders are a little intimidated when dealing with the crown.

That said there are many other countries treasure trove laws that are appallingly unfair. I know of an person who recovered some gold bullion  from a 1850's shipwreck that archeologists were officially not interested in. The person I knew handed in the treasure he found during an general amnesty under the historic ship wreck act.

There was a lot of huffing and puffing and patting him on his back for his honesty. News of the find made the 6pm news, by the 9pm news the story was pulled from the air.

Weeks later the finder inquired about a reward for his efforts and they flatly denied an existence of such a treasure. And to really rub his nose in it they read him the penalties in which he could be liable for in violation of the historic shipwreck act.

No one has ever seen or heard of treasure ever again. Interestingly enough the Maritime museum had a multiple million dollar extensions a couple of months later.

Hardluck  Angry


Very interesting! Glad it was not me.... and I am glad there are no such laws in Canada.... the UK laws are iffy enough.

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« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2009, 10:23:54 am »
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Prior to settlement in Australia, ships of the Dutch East India Company slowly made their way up the Western coast on the way to Batavia. Sometimes they never made it. The uncharted coastline and hidden reefs, together with violent storms, sent many of the ships to a watery grave over 300 years ago.

Allan Robinson, who was born in 1926, trained as a diver in the Australian Royal Navy. It was this training that later in his life would put him on the treasure trail. During the 50s SCUBA apparatus was becoming available to individuals and Robinson was one of the first to acquire one for underwater salvage.

He also actively took part in many spear fishing competitions, travelling many miles to get bigger and better fish. On one of his adventurous trips, he came across the wreck of a galleon. Although he did not know it at the time, he had accidentally stumbled on the ''Gilt Dragon'' which sank on the 28th of April, 1656.

Were it not for an alert journalist named Jim Henderson, Allan Robinson would probably never have got to the site again. Henderson convinced him the wreck was in fact the Gilt Dragon, which had gone down with considerable treasure and bullion. As fate would have it, Robinson could not locate the reef in which he had discovered the wreck.

Five years were spent searching the area before it was eventually rediscovered on April 14th 1963. Newspapers carried headlines: ''Skin-divers find the Gilt Dragon''. Overnight he was proclaimed a millionaire, fame and fortune, as least appeared to be his.

Treasure or the thought of it does strange things to people and during his absence from the wreck site, numerous individuals dived on the site hoping to find and remove something of value. In order to protect the site, Robinson left his regular employment and moved to the site.

He offered his finds to the Western Australian Museum Gratis, free of charge. Dr. W.D.L. Ride, Director of the Museum, refused this offer. When this happened, he initiated ''The Underwater World Exhibition'' so the people of Western Australia could see the relics. Newspapers always looking for good interesting stories gave the project good coverage, with the result that the W.A. Government stepped in, as they would not allow any amateur organisation to run such an exhibition.

At this stage Robinson was running short of funds, he returned to work as a salesman travelling between Darwin and Perth. Soon the money was coming back in and he was able to clear up some debts he had incurred. At the time Robinson legally applied to the Dutch Government and received salvage rights of the ship together with permission from the receiver of wrecks to proceed with operations.

In order to curtail Robinsons venture, the State Government introduced a new Act known as the ''Museum Act Amendment Act of 1964''. This Act meant that any wreck sunk before 1900 would be CROWN PROPERTY. Anyone holding relics from wrecks was to hand them over to the museum for evaluation. Robinson did just this and sent a truckload of material to the museum. Dr Colin Jack Hinton had been given the position of marine archaeologist, despite the fact that he could not even swim.

Keeping about a dozen of the 5000 ballast bricks Robinson donated, Hinton then sent the rest of the bricks to the tip, at Mongers Lake. Hinton did allow Robinson to keep coins that he had recovered and these were sent to dealers in Adelaide. In order to retain a souvenir for himself he would have the better coins copied using silver from some of the unsaleable coins to make them.

He would then sell the original but have a copy for himself. Despite the introduction of the new Act, pilferers flocked in droves to the wreck site and removed articles from the wreck under the noses of the protectors. Naturally, Robinson was disgusted with the fiasco and voiced his feelings to the media. He had now become a serious embarrassment to the State Government who were at a loss to shut him up.

On November 2nd 1967, Robinson was asked to see Colin Hinton at the W.A. Museum about the Zuytdorp. In 1927, wreckage had been found by Earnie Drage of Murchinson House Station. Coins and other artefacts had been recovered. Robinson was asked to do a feasibility study on the salvage of the wreck. He was prepared to do it on a contract where he got 80%, the State got 20%, and the Museum could take what they liked of Historical Importance.

Hinton agreed to this verbally but Robinson wanted it in writing. Hinton deliberately withheld any letter of contract from Robinson who had planned the trip to the site. At the site, the weather was lousy and it was only on the day before they were due to leave that they had a chance to dive. A ship that passed by the tender had asked over the two way radio what was going on, during a dive in which Robinson had seen coins and bullion on the sea bed. When news of this was spoken over the two-way radio,

Congratulations came pouring in from all over the place including Jurien, which was 600 miles away. The media jumped on the bandwagon once more to publish news that the Zuytdorp was now fact. On returning to Perth, Robinson received his long awaited letter from the museum. It did not contain the contract, but a warning of the Museum Act Amendment Act referring to all items at the site being CROWN PROPERTY.

With this announcement, Robinson went to see his Solicitor who drew up a contract for the Museum to sign. In the meantime, he supplied proposals and plans how he intended to salvage the wreck to the Museum. When no news over the contract arrived, Robinson in desperation went to the media.

The response from the public was enormous. Sir Thomas Meagher and State Premier David Brand were accused of doing an ostrich act. To this the Museum retaliated by announcing in the press that the group of skin divers had not been promised a salvage contract which would be put up for tender.

The State Premier Mr.David Brand made a statement to the media in which ''Museum board chairman, Sir Thomas Meagher and Museum Director, Dr W.D.L Ride had conferred with senior police and crown law representatives over the security of the wreck site''. Mr Brand said, ' No-one is entitled to touch the wreck or quarry the land for any purpose without approval of the government.''

Feeling he had been conned, Robinson decided to challenge the new Act. His solicitors started proceedings to invalidate the Act. Only once before in Australia's history had anyone challenged government legislation. Now Robinson was doing it and the wheels of officialdom drew to a halt. Challenging the system was bad enough but to embarrass the government was too much.

Allan Robinson was a man of impeccable character; the problem was to tarnish in some way. In order to raise capital for the impending litigation Robinson decided to sell some of his coins. Before doing so, he advised Dr Ride of his intentions and Dr Ride said he would to record the dates and have then photographed. Robinson left them with him and did not get them back until six-months later.

In the meantime, Robinson returned to the road selling wares between Darwin and Perth. During a visit to Carnarvon he met up with one of his old friends from Lancellin, who informed him of a vase he had dragged up in his net. This vase when identified proved to have come from the Phoenician trireme period dating back to the 12th century. Robinson was later taken out to the area where he dived on the site.

Owing to the Governments policy on shipwrecks, he decided not to divulge the location of the wreck site to anyone. To this day, that site remains a mystery. While he was back in Perth Robinson was contacted by a coin dealer, Laurie Nugent, who wanted to purchase $5000 in coins. Robinson needed the money and thought it a good idea to dispose of them.

Robinson had selected about twenty of the best coins, which he took to Geoffrey Allen, a manufacturing jeweller, so that duplicates could be made. He had also been contacted by a local TV station about a shark attack in Swan River. The station wanted Robinson to locate and kill the shark. To do this he would use a power head or ''Smokey'' which is a device, which uses a 12-gauge cartridge to kill sharks.

This device is used throughout the world to protect divers, but W.A. was the only state at the time where a licence was needed to own one. Because of his efforts to rid Perth of a shark, the police invaded Robinsons home with a search warrant and found two shotgun cartridges. For this offence, he was fined ?25 with ?15 court costs. With this, little matter out of the way Robinson was ready to start looking for one of the first known wrecks in Australia-The Tryall.

For this, he had approached TV7 who would give him $1500 to film the event. He was also approached by Eric Christiansen who wanted to take part in the search. Little did Robinson know that Christiansen was in fact employed by the W.A. Museum to spy on his activities. After the wreck had been located and filmed, Robinson found out the truth about Christiansen when he went to record the location of the wreck with Dr. Ride at the museum, Christiansen had already done it on behalf of the museum.

During his absence from Perth, the C.I.B. had been doing some investigations into Robinson's coin duplications. Investigations were conducted by Sgt. Roy Balcombe. Robinson did not have anything to worry about. He could not be charged with counterfeiting. At the same time one of the newspapers asked him to photograph work being done by the museum on the ''Gilt Dragon''.

He took his son and a student friend along on the dive. Robinson photographed the student removing a ballast brick from the site. No harm in that he thought. A few days later he was charged with stealing a brick, the property of the Crown. At last, he would be able to challenge the Act. Every time he appeared in court, the prosecution sought adjournments. It became obvious they never intended to appear in court, only to further humiliate and cause embarrassment to Robinson.

Shortly after Robinsons, marriage fell apart and he took custody of his son. Again, Robinson had to appear in court over the ballast brick from the Gilt Dragon only to have it adjourned again. He had to make a trip to Darwin, during which he punctured the oil sump of his engine. With the delay that followed the court sat and a warrant of arrest was put out on him should he return to W.A.

Resigned to the fact that he could not return to Perth for fear of arrest, he made his home in Queensland. During a stay at Cairns, he met some other divers interested in old shipwrecks and as the cyclone season was about to start. Robinson together with several of his friends set out to visit the Tryall and other wrecks he knew of. On the way to Monte Bello Island, Robinson called Darwin on the two-way radio for a weather report. Suddenly a strange voice said, ''Allan Robinson, is that you?'' the voice belonged to Stan Stojanovic an old friend out sailing in the San Michelle.

Although Robinson did not know it at the time, this was the last message to come from the San Michelle. It was loaded up with gelignite and had just been to the Monte Bello Islands. When they arrived at the reef Robinson used a dredge to recover a few artefacts, like musket balls and pieces of lead. On the third day they experienced a fire on board only to find the starter motor had been burnt out. Only with a great deal of ingenuity were they able to start the large diesel engine and head for Dampier for repairs.

In Dampier, Robinson had just got a round of drinks for the boys when a voice behind him called his name and placed him under arrest. Before he had a chance to put his drinks on the table, he was violently assaulted in front of 40 witnesses. Later at the station he was charged on a bench warrant from Perth and had to appear before a JP (Justice of the Peace) for resisting arrest.

For this offence, he was given six weeks in jail, in which he was kept under the most atrocious conditions. On his release, Sgt. Balcombe arrested him placing him on a series of charges relating to the ballast brick. In court the next day, the charges were dismissed. It was found that Sgt Balcombe had acted without police authority: he had no warrant to enter Robinson's home and no warrant of arrest.

It goes without saying, how could he resist arrest if he was not supposed to be arrested. Secondly, he could not escape legal custody if he was not in legal custody and the ballast brick could not be proved to be taken as Balcombe had alleged it had been done. On his release, Balcombe once more served another summons on Robinson, this time for using explosives on the Tryall.

Robinson's lawyer fought the case and won. Now it was Robinson's time to have his revenge. He took out a writ, complaint No.3450 of 1971 issued by Allan Robinson against Francis Roy William Balcombe and The Commissioner of Police, Athol L.M.Wedd, alleging false arrest, false imprisonment, assault and malicious prosecution.

In order to get his possessions recovered from the Gilt Dragon Robinson agreed to withdraw this writ which had placed the State of Western Australia in a most damming situation. With the settlement and Robinson's reputation restored, he now decided to attack three Acts that the W.A. Government had passed to protect shipwrecks.

Finally his lawyers overcame every objection the State put up, and the case was set down for trial. At the trial in the highest Court in the land, each State had sent it Attorney General to assist W.A. in the case. By the end of the third day, it was evident that finally Robinson had won. The case dragged on for ten days only to have the decision deferred to a later date. Yes, Robinson had won, but what did it prove? In the event of losing, the Federal Government had prepared a new law.

Since the introduction of these new laws, very few wrecks are reported to the authorities. For the finder will keep this information for himself, they know as well as Allen Robinson that TREASURE IS TROUBLE. Several years later while serving a prison sentence for assault in Long Bay Jail a report was issued that Allan Robinson committed suicide by hanging himself.

His death is a mystery, was it suicide or was it an arranged attempt to silence the man who took on a government and beat their laws. Even today, Allan Robinson's name and reputation is such, that efforts by the W.A. Museum are still being made to discredit the man. Now that he is no longer around to defend himself, others claim to have found the Gilt Dragon before him.

When this article was published in 1988, a representative from the W.A.Museum came out of the woodwork to declare Jim Henderson was the finder. If that really were the case? Why didn't Jim Henderson the newspaper reporter claim the wreck at the time? Would you allow someone else to take the credit for finding a wreck with a cargo worth millions? I doubt it very much.

This was just another attempt by the W.A. Museum to smear Allan Robinsons name and reputation. However Allan Robinson left a legacy in the form of a book entitled, ''In Australia Treasure is not for the Finder'' ISBN 0-9594957-0-3 PUBLISHED 1980. It contains newspaper clippings and reports to substantiate his claims. One only has to think back to what Mel Fisher went through with his fight with the State of Florida and the many Court battles that followed until he finally won his case. Even today, States and governments make it hard on genuine treasure hunters. It appears everyone is after something free in this world without putting any effort into getting it. Governments want treasure, you the reader want tips, and it is all part of the hobby we are all involved in.
Happy hunting

treasure is not for the finder anymore

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