Lost Wagoner Mine

Loke - I am NO geologist but would say that yes they could be from the same event or origin but not the same vein.  The colors can range some but not drastically so far as I know.  Some folks have called Waltz's ore a "rose quartz" which I could not, but if that were true then it could be the same vein, probably not the same mine though as Wagoner found no evidence that anyone had ever worked on his ledge prior to his discovering it. 

If these two veins are from the same event, it is then more likely that Wagoner's vein would also be of the deep running type and not epithermal, which would pinch out at a shallow depth like Apache Jack's black quartz gold ore.  Do you have a copy of Arizona Lode Gold Mines and Mining?  There is a pretty good explanation of the several types of lode gold deposits most commonly and not so commonly found in Arizona, that geology holds true for most places.  (Not all of course!)

Oroblanco

 

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Hello Oroblanco

Nice reef nugget.

 I have never seen rose quartz and gold together before. Rose quartz can vary from a pale pink to rose red hue. The color is because of trace amounts of titanium, iron, or manganese. Some types of quartz contain microscopic rutile needles which produces an asterism in transmitted light. Recent studies with X-ray diffraction suggests the color is due to thin microscopic fibers of possibly dumortierite within the quartz. There are deposits containing dumortierite in Nevada but most likely there is iron present in the quartz.

Perhaps this is a possible clue looking areas that have similar mineralisation to produce rose quartz?

Was there ever analyse of the gold content, copper lead silvers, iron etc..?

Good idea with the names checking old censis records


Hardluck

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Hola amigos,

Loke - I did not mean to sound so basic-level geology, only said it that way for some of our readers are not too familiar so was trying to explain it as best I can.  If you have Dr Glover's book with the analysis of the specimens, check out what he says about the similar ore he calls "Kochera" for it is not from the same vein as Waltz's ore, yet is from the same event/origin.  I suspect that Wagoner's ledge is very likely also from the same event.


Hardluck wrote

		Quote:			Posted by {author}
	I have never seen rose quartz and gold together before. Rose quartz can vary from a pale pink to rose red hue. The color is because of trace amounts of titanium, iron, or manganese. Some types of quartz contain microscopic rutile needles which produces an asterism in transmitted light. Recent studies with X-ray diffraction suggests the color is due to thin microscopic fibers of possibly dumortierite within the quartz. There are deposits containing dumortierite in Nevada but most likely there is iron present in the quartz. Perhaps this is a possible clue looking areas that have similar mineralisation to produce rose quartz? Was there ever analyse of the gold content, copper lead silvers, iron etc..? Good idea with the names checking old censis records

Your idea is sound and one that several Dutch-hunters have attempted - to identify a specific mineral in the host rock as an "identifier" and then looking for any occurrence of that particular mineral which logically would lead to help find the mine.  This may be possible with the Dutchman for there are the specimens to examine but unfortunately no specimens from Wagoner are available, at least not that I know of.  Gold in rose quartz is not too common, I had a couple decent photos of Breyfogle's specimens but can not find them.  The same trick of using an identifier mineral is done by many diamond mining companies today, looking for a specific type of garnet that always occurs with diamonds, but in the case of Wagoner we have no specimen to work with.

Your second point raised as a question is a good one, but again we have no specimen and no assay test results.  There were tests done on Waltz's ore, an assay done by Dick Holmes and Dr Thomas Glover ran some non-destructive tests that were interesting too but these would only help in ruling out Wagoner's.  Saying that is only as far as I know - perhaps someone does have a specimen and/or assay results etc, I would sure love to have a peek at them!

Good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.   
Oroblanco

 




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Hola amigos,

Just wanted to add, here is another version of the Wagoner story:

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This version has him discover the vein south of Miners Needle, like several other versions but the oldest version seems to have him make the find before reaching that landmark while heading south. 

Oroblanco

 

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Hardluck wrote

		Quote:			Posted by {author}
	Now you have come up with some interesting names of the identity if this man called Wagoner? I can confirm A "Charles T wagoner" in 1870 censis age about 25 a Farmer Skull Valley, Yavapai, Arizona Territory He was born in New York. In 1875 in the censis of poor Alms houses in New York there is a chas Wagoner was admitted to the poor house he was suffering from Alcoholism. However things might of looked up a little for him around 1880 he is married by 1885 he recorded in Minisota with 3 young children one age 3 and other 2 age one. Most likely twins. However he has no wife recorded. Are they all the same person? Some times its hard to confirm 100% however it seems this Chas T was not rich after 1870. As for the others they require a little digging deeper?

One of the Charles was listed as an inmate of the county jail, as "Insane"; Penfield found another Wagoner too, Ed, for whom the town of Wagoner <in Yavapai county> was named but unfortunately there is something about all of these men that does not dovetail with the Wagoner of the story, for all of these men were much more permanent, living in one place long enough to get listed on censuses for example.  The man of the story came to Arizona for health reasons ostensibly, and departed as soon as he had accumulated a store of wealth.  It is not uncommon to find examples like his, of persons who came to Arizona for health issues (usually lung problems) and being rejuvenated after a fairly short time, a year or even less, and returning to their homes.  I ran across a similar instance the other night while looking up the Ludi 'brothers' of that story, a son named Abraham <Ludy> came from CA to recover his health and soon did.  Just an opinion of my own of course, I know that many treasure hunters place great store in tracing back on a genealogical sort of way but have never found that route to be too productive.  The problems are several and we can never be certain that we have the same person, for instance.  With Wagoner's story we are especially hobbled by not knowing his first name.

One possible route to help confirm Wagoner's arrival and departure might be in the Pinal newspapers; it was not uncommon for local newspapers to list the names of new persons arriving on the stagecoach or departing town.  The paper was named the Pinal Drill, was first named just The Drill but unfortunately if Wagoner arrived after 1889 the newspaper had gone defunct.   The next nearest town newspaper (the AZ Silver Belt) is partly available online at some of the sites that carry collections of newspaper archives (like the Library of Congress site:

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- anyway a quick look through them turns up a Luther Wagoner, whose expertise was cited for opinion as to why the disaster occurred when the Walnut Grove dam burst, 1890-03-01 issue.  I don't know if it is going to be possible to pinpoint "the" Wagoner of the story.

A point in favor for treasure hunters is that Wagoner did not make any special efforts to conceal his ledge.  The work he did on it was of the most cursory type, only hand tools, cobbing off enough of the rich ore and perhaps removing excess quartz rock to reduce his pack load, and only a limited number of visits so there is no reason to expect to find the vein completely mined out or extensive workings requiring a massive investment just to make it safe to enter, as with many old mines.  It may well still be exposed to the surface - or only covered very slightly by blow sand for instance.  All speculation of course but based on what little info we have.  I think we can rule out the theory that the ledge is specifically IN LaBarge Canyon, even though several versions place it there, for we know that Wagoner made a habit of heading in to it from Whitlow's ranch, and that would not be the easiest route in to LaBarge.  He must have had good reason why he went in that way.  Also many thousands of people have trekked LaBarge every year (practically every day for that matter) so a vein of rose quartz exposed to the light of day seems like it should have been found quite easily if it were in such a heavily traveled route.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.   
Oroblanco

 


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