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Offline hardluckTopic starter
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2010, 07:36:51 am »
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Hello All

Idaho Jones.

It is very beautiful flowing hand writing of those original documents. but very hard to read. It is a common mistake when you see forgers do on forged maps and documents by using modern script. There are many different spelling variations and words in the old English scripts that are archaic and not now used in the English language today. Huh?

This is why my eyes are bad looking and squinting at these old scripts Grin

When you see the Wilkins maps alleged to be William Kidd's charts you will begin to see errors in the map such as modern writing and not the classic flowing old English of the 1700's. :Smiley

Harold Wilkins who criticized other authors for propagating myths was guilty himself. He hand drew alleged maps in the 1930's that he claimed he saw from memory of alleged Kidd's Charts. One of map does slightly resemble Juan Fernandez. However the fact of the matter the four Kidd charts the subject of so many so called experts books are sadly fake.

The Maps shown in this post are the originals made by Basil Ringnose and later charts were made by William Hack a map maker in London. The crosses are sadly not x marks the spot  Grin  But places marked to anchor on the chart. What it gives us is knowledge of where the pirates anchored on the island. It is most likely that small stashes from the days of the pirates,may be found in small caves and hiding spots around these bays.

You are correct about the assumption about the weight. There has been a few versions about the amounts, Some times In Spanish Dollars, English Pounds or America Dollars. Whatever the amount it seems to be a substantial fortune for one and all.

Most of it perhaps ended up in the taverns and brothels of the New World. William knight disappears into history after dividing spoils with Davis. What interests me is their filibustering expedition along the South American Coast. Huh? Dampier speaks a little bit about in his journal.

In my travels to South America I went to most of the ancient Spanish towns and Cities that were plundered buy the buccaneers. That was amazing just to stop and look around and take in the history.

Some of this treasure in smaller stashes may even as you suggest may of ended up hidden along the coast of Virginia? Sparking a whole host of treasure legends themselves.

There is as you can see two versions about the fate of Davis? One he was arrested with Linoel Wafer who was both a friend of William Dampier in Virgina and tried but was acquitted after 2 years imprisonment. Some historians claim Davis was only connected with Kidd by association and fact that he arrested in Virgina the same time?

By 1701 Davis last heard of was heading back to the Darian near Panama. Why was that?Huh?
What happened him Huh?

At no time during Alexander Selkirk's 1704 to 1709 stay on Juan Fernandez does he mentions treasure. The Duke captain Woodes Rogers with Dampier as Pilot was back in the pacific had no instructions to search for treasure in their directions only loot and plunder Spanish. So it seems there is no knowledge officially known at least back then of any large treasure on Juan Fernandez?

But when the next lot of pirates came to visit.....

More to come

Hardluck Wink

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Offline Idaho Jones
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2010, 05:18:11 pm »
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That is one of the biggest problem with being a forger of modern times Grin and a reader of documents from olden times. It does take a bit of work to try and read.

Yes the Kidd maps are definitely bogus, apparently much like the later versions for JF Smiley It seems to happen that after years of searching for something some people fall to creating evidence. Perhaps from desperation or just to keep interest alive or generate revenue, maybe even with the intention of using the money to further the search, while some are clearly to defraud. Ah but those are completely different stories.

I was thinking there was another implied connection between Kidd and JF but I will have to go back and reread. Could be I am misremembering, too many pirate stories Smiley

I figured the markings were safe harbors, otherwise the treasure is in the water.  Shocked It also never hurts to ask just in case there is more to the map story Smiley I agree it does imply that any treasure (if any) would not be too far from harbors as you say. One has to wonder how far the sea has encroached on these harbors in almost 300 years? It might be a good idea to look at the geology or perhaps any treasure may now be under the sea.

My assumption of spanish coins was made since a high percentage of the raiding seems to have been of spanish towns and ships. Availability and quantity. It would be interesting indeed to find a pirate treasure just to see how many nations coins were in the mix. English pounds seems a remote possibility and American dollars highly unlikely until the late 1700s Smiley     

It would be an interesting journey to try and track down some of these "retirees" such as William Knight. Did he become a businessman? Likely changing his identity at least. Or perhaps struck down by ruffians in one of those new world brothels or taverns? What does one do with treasure when you get off the boat as it were? Perhaps you could find a banker who wouldn't question, but that seems dangerous since large sums of money spark rumors. Do you hide it and take enough to get established before retrieving it? hmmm

From an ancestry page I found this bit about Davis before the Kidd incident:

"The tradition of the pirate ancestor is the most plausible one. The Pirate was Capt. John Edward Davis, a record of whose exploits is found in Esquemeling's " "The Buccaneers of America".

John Edward Davis was a successful pirate from 1683 until 1688. At the end of that time he saw the error of his ways; obtained a pardon from the King; and settled at Old Point Comfort, Virginia, where he lived for fourteen years -- until July 24, 1702. The year 1688, therefore, marks the settlement of this family in America."

Perhaps the capture of Kidd set off a pirate manhunt in the states? hmmm something isn't clear here. 1702 was the year Davis joined another expedition if I recall. I need to start a timeline to keep it all straight I guess Smiley It seems Davis had already bought his way out of jail before being picked up during the Kidd situation.

Another bit from the americas:

"Williamsburg's connection with pirates dates to 1693. Account books of the College of William and Mary show ?300 received from three buccaneers named Edward Davis, Lionel Delawafer, and Andrew Hinson, who thus obtained their release from the Jamestown jail."
Colonial Williamsburg Journal, Vol. 15, No. 1 (Autumn 1992), pp. 22-28

Again hmmm. One other issue is both names Edward and Davis are quite popular, probably second only to John Smith.... 

You would think Selkirk would have walked the entire island several times during 5 years simply to relieve boredom. I'd guess if anything was out of place he should have noticed it unless vegetation perhaps covered the evidence. Also no mention of anything else being picked up besides Selkirk.

So the treasure comes later? The plot thickens... Smiley

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« Reply #12 on: May 26, 2010, 01:15:25 am »
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 Hi All
 This Island sounds like a good one to have a look around, and swing a detector if its allowed! I recall this was a pirate safe haven, So how many Pirates visited this place?? The R2D2  "Arturito" was also an interesting part in the hunt for treasure. I was a bit dissapointed it didnt look more like the star wars version. ( now if it worked that would be a nice bit of gear to have ).
 Now back to the point of stashing the loot. Less valuable treasures may have been dumped over the side of the ship, with the option of retrieval at a later date. More valuable loot would probly be more carefully hidden.  Cool 

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« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2010, 07:34:56 am »
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Hi GB

You can see someone had some fun creating Aurturito, the exterior just screams super special robot doesn't it? I do especially like the red light on top. That would have made me suspicious at first glance  Grin

The story is so convoluted with pirates who could have stashed loot as a group or individual since it was a major stopping place. I would say it has potential to turn up something.

I'm working on a timeline for Davis' adventures since he is the most likely suspect to be involved it seems. I'll post it when I get a little more data in it. 

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« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2010, 08:00:42 am »
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Hello All

Goldnboy:

 In regards to dumping any treasure over the side I very much doubt because to majority of Sailors in 16th,17th, 18th,19th century did not know how to swim. So recovery for them was impossible for most. But any unwanted items of no value could of course been dumped ever the side.

Still I would not be surprised to find interesting artifacts in the bays of the Island.

Idaho Jones:

That is an excellent Idea for a time line. There is some information  at the moment that does seem a little convoluted. It seem Edward Davis did spent time in Jail With Linoel Wafer and they Did donate money to the College.

Was Davis arrested again in 1799 which Kidd was arrested? Or was it another Edward Davis? Historians have always put a question mark on this?

Are you are thinking of a connection between Kidd who met James Kelly at St Marys and returned to America with him?

James Gilliam, also known as James Kelly, (died July 12, 1701) was an English pirate active in the Indian Ocean during the 1690s and was a longtime associate of Captain William Kidd. One of Kidd's earliest crew members, Gilliam was a participant in the mutiny onboard the Moacha and the subsequent murder of Captain Edgecomb who was killed in his sleep.

After taking command of the East Indiaman, Gilliam and the crew of the Mocha captured several ships in the eastern seas until his arrest after returning to New England with Kidd in 1699. Transported to Great Britain, he was tried at the Old Bailey and found guilty of piracy.

 While in prison, he wrote A full and true Discovery of all the Robberies, Pyracies, and other Notorious Actions, of that Famous English Pyrate, Capt. James Kelly which included references to the as yet undiscovered Galapagos Islands before his eventual execution on July 12, 1701.

In James Kelly own words from his confession his earlier pirating expedition along the South American Coast.?

 From thence toward the South Sea, where we soon arrived; the first Ship met with us was Capt. John Eaton in the Ship Nicholas with 20 odd Guns, but he had French Colours and we English up. [We] exchanged several shot, she not being [seeing] our English Colours, we being downing upon her she made our Colours, she made Friends and Joyn'd Consorts, then we Sailed to Wansanandus [Juan Fernandez],

And yet we know later James Kelly was involved with the attempt to capture treasure at the city of Leon but he claimed he came away empty handed. Edward Davis was involved in the same attack so it is possible that they had meet one another?

Could William kidd Knowing James Kelly who had been involved in an attack on Leon with Edward Davis, May of had later found out information about Edward Davis later activities?

And that was it this alleged treasure a desperate Kidd was referring to save himself?  

Interesting.......

Hardluck  Huh?

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« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2010, 08:37:53 am »
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Hi Hardluck,

You read my mind kind of but I was thinking slightly different. Kelley has been on my mind but I can't let myself get distracted from Davis just yet. Grin

It seems Davis escaped the hangmans noose not once but twice journeying to London only to be released. He apparently had some good friends in high places. I think it was the same Davis, and he was not only released but found another berth soon after on the Blessing. What happened after remains a mystery as yet.

More rampant speculation to follow  Grin

One of the stories tells that when Davis joined Kidd at Saint Marie for the voyage back to America, it was after an evening of rum and talk on Kidd's ship between Kidd, Davis, and Rogers at least. Beer Chug

Davis was serving as boatswain for Tempest Rogers on the Fidelia at the time and went to Kidd's ship to make some repairs.  Violent Rodgers left first to return to Fidelia and Davis made to go with but Rogers told him stay and he would send a boat over later. Instead he sailed off leaving Davis behind. Mad

Question is did Davis make Rogers nervous with drunken tales of his captains days? He may have feared for his captaincy against the very experienced Davis?  Fight Or was Davis really ready to retire and Rogers not wanting an influential man like Davis aboard talking of heading home and segmenting his crew? Perhaps Rogers just wanted to make it easy for Davis to quit, or perhaps he and Kidd had made an arrangement without Davis knowlege?  Shake Hand

The odd thing here is that Davis apparently had his loot from the trip with him or ashore on Saint Marie. Either he was shopping for a ride home to America already, or Rogers was honest enough to leave his share behind.  Huh?

Another question which was the reason for the above story, did Davis brag about his buried treasure to Kidd? Is that the treasure Kidd brought up trying to save himself? If it was Davis treasure and not Kidd's it makes more sense why he would have boasted about it on the journey back. After aquitting himself perhaps Kidd had designs to go retrieve it? Perhaps that is why Davis who was Kidd's star witness didn't help as much as Kidd hoped?  Mad

Just a thought.  Wink

Here is the timeline so far. I've been trying to stick to only dated references. Feel free to point out any oddities or other dates.

Timeline for (John) Edward Davis

1679 Davis aquires Peter Cloise

1680 Joins the Pacific Adventure led by Bartholomew Sharp and John Coxon

1683 April Davis and Dampier sign on with John Cook (or Cooke) and co. in Hampton, Virginia 
1683 Served as Quartermaster to Captain John Cook on the "Revenge".
1683 part of crew that took a 36 gun Danish ship at Sierra Leone rechristened "Bachelors Delight or Batchelors Delight"

1684 march landed at Juan Fernandez and met up with Captain Brown of the Nicholas
1684 Davis becomes captain of the Bachelor's Delight after Cook dies off Costa Rica.
1684 November 3 burnt town of Paita


1685 May 28 Spanish Fleet defeats bucaneers at Bay of Panama.
1685? Gulf of Ampala crew infected with spotted fever are left ashore.

1686 March Davis and Knight raid Sana, Peru
1686 may - june 5 more peruvian towns looted.

1687 February Davis with 80 men raid Arica, Chile
1687 May arrived at Guayaquil to help Captain Pierre le Picard defeat a spanish fleet sent against him.
1687 12 June leaves Guaquil for Galapagos, Juan Fernandez and possibly Easter Island (Rapa Nui)
1687 buries one third of loot at Cocos Island near chatham bay as insurance.
1687 autumn sails east around Cape Horn

1688 Davis captured in a rowboat in the James river with 2 other pirates and servant Peter Cloise (or Cleiss) and 1900 pieces of eight.

1690 shipped to London for trial.

1691 Lords of Trade freed the "great villians" and returned thier property minus L300 each donated to William and Mary College building fund.

1697 crewman of the "Fidelio or Fidelia" with captain Tempest Rodgers

1699? Joined ship with William Kidd at Saint Marie bound for America after being left behind by Tempest Rodgers.

1701 May 8 or 9 appeared as key witness at William Kidd trial

1702 July 24 sailed from Jamaica on the "Blessing"
1702 possibly buried more loot at Cocos Island near Chatham Bay


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« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2010, 09:20:50 am »
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Hello Idaho Jones

Its 1am where I am. Coffee

See how addictive the story is getting. Grin

Well done  Clapp With the Time line on Davis and Your comments are most interesting.

 Just one quick question for now?

This Captain Rogers you mention was it Captain Woodes Rogers?

Hardluck  Huh?

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« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2010, 01:47:50 am »
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Haha! I know the feeling Hardluck, I was putting that together at 1:30 am and up at 7am adding to it Grin

That would be Captain Tempest Rogers. I don't believe the two are the same, but I will have to dig to find out for sure. Name changes were common it seems for some reason. Wink

These late 1600s bucaneers/pirates/privateers had quite a good ol boy network it seems. I think they all knew one another at some point. Of course someone as enigmatic as Davis would have met a good many having commanded such a large force I suppose. 
Not to get too sidetracked from Davis but here is a bit more on Tempest Rodgers and the Fidelia who perhaps met with foul play? Or was it simply a fencing operation? hmmm

Exerpt from :

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Oct 24 Boston

About three weeks since we seized a ship and some East India goods here. The officers of the

Custom House were not nimble enough or we had got all the goods, worth above ?2,000. That

which gave us a jealousy of the ship was that William Symes, the master, went hence in poor

circumstances and came back master and half owner of this ship. He was formerly burnt in the

hand in this town for stealing. He said that being with his sloop at Crab Island (a maroon

island 60 leagues S. of Cura?ao), he met Tempest Rogers, master of the Fidelia of London,

who trucked her for his sloop. I fancied at first he had murdered Rogers and run away with

his ship. Mr. Secretary Addington and I examined him and his men severally, but could

discover nothing. Three or four days after, the master of a sloop from Providence told me

that Mr. Elding, chief in command there since Col. Webb's coming away, had seized Rogers and

his sloop with goods and money of a considerable value upon his going in thither. We believe

here that Rogers or Symes, or both, were on board the Quidah Merchand, which Kidd had left

at Hispaniola, and there got their loading of East India goods, Crab Island being very near

the place where the Quidah Merchand lay before she was burnt. You will observe that in

Symes' examination he says that Rogers told him he had remitted ?27,000 to his owners in

England in good bills of exchange. I send the certificate of the register of the Fidelia,

which will show who the owners are. Tempest Rogers, it's to be feared, was not sent from

London on an honest design. I hear he was at Rhode Island and sailed thence to Madagascar in

company of one Tho. Wake, a pirate. I am informing myself at Rhode Island about it. Perhaps

you will see cause to examine the owners. The deposition of Mr. Pain, deputy collector,

shows that Symes discovered to him goods different in quantity from what Symes declared in

his deposition enclosed. I suspect there is some roguery in this importation of E. India

goods by Symes, which I hope to find out in a little time. There being sufficient cause to

believe he came not honestly by 'em, I directed Mr. Secretary to require bail of him in

?1,000, which he not finding, he is committed to gaol. The sloop that received the goods

from the Fidelia is on a coasting voyage and shall be seized at her return. I writ your

Lordships (July 26) that I sent the sloop Antonio to Antegoa in quest of Bolton and Burt,

and to try if any of the goods that Kidd left in the Quidah Merchant could be retrieved.

Col. Yemans, Lt. Gov. of Antegoa, sent me two letters in reply to mine. Copies enclosed. The

master of the Sloop was forced to hasten away from Antegoa, or the sloop had been seized by

some persons who pretended themselves part owners of her with Bolton, who they said had no

power to sell her to Kidd. I have taken a great deal of pains to have right done to Capt.

Gullock, but have not been able to get the Council to join with me in ordering all the money

to be paid to him that was seized with Bradish and his accomplices. Several rewards they

would have the persons to receive that found and kept the money; I made a shift to bring it

down to a pretty moderate sum. But that which I cannot bear at their hands (and which I tell

'em will be an eternal dishonour to their Province), is their deducting a ?150 out of the

money to pay for the diet of the pirates since their being in gaol. I appointed three

gentlemen of the Council to receive the money and goods and make up an exact account, which

goes. They have paid all into the hands of Capt. Gullock who is gone to Rhode Island to

receive what money is in the hands of Gov. Cranston. Thence he will go to receive the money

Gov. Winthrop has seized in Connecticut colony. The ?942 19s. 3d.

From: 'America and West

Indies: October 1699, 22-25', Calendar of State Papers Colonial, America and West Indies,

Volume 17: 1699 and Addenda 1621-1698 (1908), pp. 482-500. URL:

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  Date accessed: 26 May 2010.
A couple more tidbits to the Davis story, picking up where we left off:

July 24th, 1702, Davis sailed from Jamaica in the Blessing (Captain Brown; twenty guns, seventy-nine men), to attack the town of Tolu on the Spanish Main, which was plundered and burnt.

(note) Captain Brown died at Tolu from a pistol shot in the head. A man named Christian became captain of the Blessing. Davis tells us that "Christian was an old experienced soldier and privateer, very brave and just in all his actions." He had lived for a long while amongst the Darien Indians, with whom he was on friendly terms.

Christian ? Flibuster from Holland. Perhaps aka Tristian. Some called him French, not Dutch. With his ship in 1681in La Sound Cay (called after the pirate Le Sound alias Lessone) when Dampier ran into him there. Sold him beads to present to Dampier?s Indian guides. Was surprised by a Spanish guardacosta during a lull, escaped through industriously rowing. Sailed from ?le ? Vache in 1683 for Virginia with the spoils of two vessels, one of which was a ship; from France laden with wines. Some sources say he took part in De Graaf en Van Hoorn?s, successful crusade to Vera Cruz, Mexico, May 1683. Apparently had a long life.

Tristian (French) (c.1681) - rescued Dampier off La Sound's Key

After Tolu:

Davis next sailed to the Samballoes, and, guided by the Indians, who were friendly to the buccaneers, but hated the Spaniards, they attacked the gold-mines, where, in spite of most cruel tortures, they got but little gold. The crew next attacked Porto Bello, but found little worth stealing in that much harassed town.

So far I can find nothing about Davis at this point but he would be nearing 50 so perhaps he just retired.

More about Cleiss, Davis' servant/slave and friend up until he talked a bit much....

Cloise, Peter ? Buccaneer from Africa.

Aka Peter Cleiss. Was freed by Edward Davis from his Spanish owner in 1679. Became a close friend of his master Davis aboard the 14-gun ship Emanuel in the enterprises in the Caribbean as well as along South America?s Pacific coast. Had taken quite a number of ships and Spanish towns. With Davis when arrested at Philadelphia, May 1688. Was valued at fourteen pounds sterling as a slave and died while in Virginia, perhaps as a consequence of his damaging testimony against Davis, Wafer and Hinson. Davis is said to have responded to inquiries after Cleiss as "a negro now dead."

Dead men tell no tales Wink

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« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2010, 03:07:11 am »
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Hello Idaho Jones

Well done with Davis. It seems the relationship between him and his slave friend soured a little bit between him a Peter Cleiss. It is most likely Cleiss talked too much about Davis exploits and paid the price.

Davis seems to have disappeared from history after raiding the gold mines of the Darien. This sighting at Portobello is new to me, was that in 1702?

Did he die of yellow fever, or retire is an interesting question?

 Why would he go back to the Darien a place where disease is rife risking his life only retire empty handed? I suspect he made his way across the isthmus to capture another vessel to resume piracy of Spanish Shipping or to recover treasure.

In local legends in Northern Peru Davis was sighted once again off the coast in 1703. This will not be known in English archive records. Davis who we know raided with region with William knight in 1687.Was well know by the Spanish in Peru.

When I was in Northern Peru I visited the Ruins of the city of Sana some times written as Zana. It was attacked so repeatedly and a disastrous flood that the city was eventually abandoned. Sana a one time rivaled Lima as the capital, the population moved to Lambeyque but never rose to such importance again. It was the center of gold production in Peru for 300 hundred years. It is the almost compete 17th century ghost town almost unknown outside of Peru.

In local lore they claim the buccaneers in 1687 took two days stripping the gold from the great church there alone. One report claimed that 688 sacks of gold was taken.

Now if that was true then perhaps Davis did decide to bury treasure. Perhaps we can speculate a little that he may of returned to recover treasure 1703/ 1704 ?

Now for fun lets just speculate for a moment. You will remember in Selkirk's account that he saw 2 Spanish ships arrive a 2 different times at Juan Fernandez during his 4 years there.

What if one of those ships was a captured Spanish Vessel with none over than Davis returning to recover treasure?

An interesting possibility is it not?

But was the treasure on Juan Fernandez or some where else?

More to follow.

Hardluck  Wink




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« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2010, 08:23:24 am »
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Hi Hardluck,

Thanks for the additional location and date. I would hope after all that raiding and piracy that Davis got to spend some of that loot. The Porto Bello reference I have no other info on as yet, I did notice it says the crew attacked and nothing about Davis being with. hmmm

Sana looks like an interesting place. It must have been exciting to visit those places knowing all the adventurers that passed through them. It looks so clean it must be a heritage site? Thanks for the pictures.

Someone with a history like Davis, you would think someone would note his passing if he died. I like to think he changed his name and really retired, perhaps as you say after recovering his buried loot.

If it was on JF during his stay, Selkirk would surely have mentioned something about it. I am quite certain he spent every moment watching any visitors. Any suspicious activity like digging would surely be noticed wouldn't it?

The big question is why bury a treasure you never planned to return for? Perhaps that is why the Cocos treasure has eluded searchers so long? hmmm.

   

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