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Offline farmdigger
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« Reply #10 on: August 15, 2009, 08:34:10 pm »
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California is ridiculous when it comes to nonsense laws that were influenced by emotional tree hugging clueless individuals.

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« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2009, 05:48:39 am »
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Senator Patricia Wiggins (D-Santa Rosa) is the brain child behind all this. You know she has never been near a suction dredge or even knows what one looks like. It is just a matter of who pays her the most money. Hey when she is done making a name for herself she can put an end to hunting and fishing too. Now won't that be fun. Violent

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« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2009, 09:59:57 pm »
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The dredging moratorium is significant for a far more sinister reason than most realize. A freedom was taken without any evidence that it needed to be taken. The studies will "be done later" at californias discretion. Since California is virtually bankrupt...a freedom was CONFISCATED.

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Buying a test nugget is bad luck...you didnt...did you??

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« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2009, 07:45:40 am »
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I read this on another forum.    The battle is not over!   Wise

California politicians blunder 

It is absolutely established that a valid unpatented placer mining claim is in fact a Statutory Federal Grant of ?private property? derived from 30 U.S.C. ? 21-54. All unpatented placer mining claims situated in California are on federally owned lands, under jurisdiction of the USFS, or BLM. Otherwise none would exist, as federal land is the only place an unpatented mining claim can be initiated, and held.

As long as the Federal government retains title, the federal interest in providing free access to its own land in order to promote mining is sufficient to preempt any state law that fundamentally bans such use. Thus under standard preemption analysis any state legislation, or regulation that conflicts with this overriding federal purpose, must fail.

Under the Supremacy Clause, any state law that conflicts with a federal law is preempted. Gibbons v. Ogden, 22 U.S. 1 (1824). Any state legislation which frustrates the full effectiveness of federal law is rendered invalid by the Supremacy Clause" regardless of the underlying purpose of its enactors, Perez v. Campbell, 402 U.S. 637, 651-52, 91 S.Ct. 1704, 29 L.Ed.2d 233 (1971)

A conflict exists if a party cannot comply with both state law and federal law. In addition, even in the absence of a direct conflict between state and federal law, a conflict exists if the state law is an obstacle to the accomplishment and execution of the full purposes and objectives of Congress. Crosby v. Nat?l Foreign Trade Council, 530 U.S. 363, 372-73 (2000).

In determining whether a state law is a sufficient obstacle, the courts examine the federal statute as a whole and identify its purpose and intended effects and then determine the impact of the challenged law on congressional intent. State law can be pre-empted in either of two general ways. If Congress evidences an intent to occupy a given field, any state law falling within that field is pre-empted.

If Congress has not entirely displaced state regulation over the matter in question, state law is still pre-empted to the extent it actually conflicts with federal law, that is, when it is impossible to comply with both state and federal law, or where the state law stands as an obstacle to the accomplishment of the full purposes and objectives of Congress. California Coastal Comm?n v. Granite Rock Co., 480 U.S. 572, 581 (1987)

An 1998 8th Circuit Court of Appeals case revolving around near identical prohibitions on unpatented mining claims, wherein holders brought suit claiming that federal mining laws preempted ordinance prohibiting issuance of any new or amended permits for surface metal mining within area which included federal lands. Private landowner intervened to defend the ordinance.

The United States District Court for the District of South Dakota, Richard H. Battey, Chief Judge, 977 F.Supp. 1396, granted summary judgment for plaintiffs and enjoined the ordinance. Intervener appealed.

The Court of Appeals, Hansen, Circuit Judge, held that: (1) preemption claim was ripe, and (2) Federal Mining Act preempted ordinance. Affirmed; South Dakota Mining Association Inc v. Lawrence County, 155 F.3d 1005

The only locatable mineral on the majority of unpatented placer claims held under federal law is placer gold. Which is naturally concentrated in stream or river bed gravels, and usualy no where else in worthwhile amounts. The only economically viable means to profitably recover placer gold in stream or river gravel is by ?suction dredging?.

Accordingly, suction dredging is the ?Highest & Best Use? of placer mining claims.
As a matter of fact, it is only viable use, as no other mining method is practical, economical, or profitable.

When the only viable use of an unpatented placer mining claim is by suction dredging, arbitrarily prohibiting that use (even temporarily) effects a complete ?taking? of all economic benefit the owner could derive from it, for the duration of the ban.

The Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution, made applicable to state and local governments by the Fourteenth Amendment, prohibits the government from taking private property for public use without just compensation.

The California Constitution provides, "Private property may be taken or damaged for public use only when just compensation ... has first been paid to, or into court for, the owner." (Cal. Const., art. I, ? 19.)

It is well established that just compensation? is the full value of the property taken at the time of the taking, plus interest from the date of taking. United States v. Blankinship, 9 Cir., 1976, 543 F.2d 1272, 1275.

Without doubt, S.B. 670 capriciously deprives thousands of families of their legitimate livelihood, and caused an immediate gross compensatory ?taking? of valid existing rights, and compensable private property interests of considerable magnitude.

Neither the USFS, or BLM will enforce this state law, given that that federal statutes, and regulations preempt this suction dredging ban on unpatented placer mining claims situated on federal lands under their control in California. That clearly should give public notice the federal courts will most certainly, and quickly take the same position the USFS/BLM has.

The Treasury of the State of California will ultimately be held liable to pay compensable damages to all those effected, accruing from August 6th 2009 forward. Until at least the illegal ban on suction dredging unpatented placer mining claims is lifted, or if necessary overturned by appropriate federal court action.

Plainly, Senator Wiggins who introduced this Bill, all the legislature that voted for it, and even the Governor failed to have S.B. 670 analyzed for critical federal preemption flaws, or significant ?takings? liabilities it would create.

It would seen astute on the part of the California legislature to limit state financial liabilities here by swiftly correcting this law, to effect only a suction dredging ban on fee simple lands in California, which federal law may not preempt.

If not corrected quickly, state coffers will needlessly expend precious funds in paying attorney fees, and costs attempting to delay the inevitable overruling of S.B. 670 illegal provisions in federal court. Involved compensatory damages could well approach $20,000,000 annually. If ignored, those applicable damages will certainly compound over time with interest, costs and attorney fees applied.

California politicians should ponder that the 3,200 other current California suction dredge permit holders, and approximately 21,000 other similarly situated owners of unpatented placer mining claims on federal lands in California will justifiably require compensation for their loss?s S.B 670 directly caused them.

Once all affected are joined in a class action, which will most certainly prevail.
Who do these politicians think will be billed for that compensation?
Without question, it will most certainly be the treasury of the state of California. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Under the mining laws a person has a statutory right, consistent with Departmental regulations, to go upon the open (unappropriated and unreserved) Federal lands for the purpose of mineral prospecting, exploration, development, extraction and other uses reasonably incident thereto." (See 30 U.S.C. ? 21-54, 43 C.F.R. ? 3809.3-3, 0-6).

Federal mining claims are "private property" Freese v. United States, 639 F.2d 754, 757, 226 Ct.Cl. 252 cert. denied, 454 U.S. 827, 102 S.Ct. 119, 70 L.Ed.2d 103 (1981); Oil Shale Corp. v. Morton, 370 F.Supp. 108, 124 (D.Colo. 1973).

This possessory interest entitles the claimant to "the right to extract all minerals from the claim without paying royalties to the United States." Swanson v. Babbitt, 3 F.3d 1348, 1350 (9th Cir. 19930).

16 U.S.C. ? 481, Use of Waters: All waters within boundaries of national forests may be used for domestic, mining, milling, or irrigation purposes under the laws of the state wherein such national forests are situated or under the laws of the United States and the rules and regulations established thereunder.

"Uncompensated divestment" of a valid unpatented mining claim would violate the Constitution. Freese v. United States, 639 F.2d 754, 757, 226 Ct.Cl. 252, cert. denied, 454 U.S. 827, 102 S.Ct. 119, 70 L.Ed. 2d 103 (1981).

Even though title to the fee estate remains in the United States, these unpatented mining claims are themselves property protected by the Fifth Amendment against uncompensated takings. See Best v. Humboldt Placer Mining Co., 371 U.S. 334 (1963); cf. Forbes v. Gracey, 94 U.S. 762, 766 (1876); U.S.C.A.Const. Amend. 5; North American Transportation & Trading Co. v. U.S., 1918, 53 Ct.Cl. 424, affirmed 40 S.Ct. 518, 253 U.S. 330; United States v. Locke, 471 U.S. 84, 107, 105 S.Ct. 1785, 1799, 85 L.Ed. 2d 64 (1985); Freese v. United States, 639 F.2d 754, 757, 226 Ct.Cl. 252, cert. denied, 454 U.S. 827, 102 S.Ct. 119, 70 L.Ed. 2d 103 (1981); Rybachek v. United States, 23 Cl.Ct. 222 (1991).

A valid location, though unpatented, is a grant in the nature of an estate in fee and if such an estate is taken by the United States, just compensation must be made. See U.S.C.A. Const. Amend. 5, North American Transportation & Trading Co. v. U.S., 1918, 53 Ct.Cl. 424, affirmed 40 S.Ct. 518, 253 U.S. 330

Such an interest may be asserted against the United States as well as against third parties (see Best v. Humboldt Placer Mining Co., 371 U.S. 334, 336 (1963); Gwillim v. Donnellan, 115 U.S. 45, 50 (1885)) and may not be taken from the claimant by the United States without due compensation. See United States v. North American Transportation & Trading Co., 253 U.S. 330 (1920); cf. Best v. Humboldt Placer Mining Co.

For further information on federal preemption law, the internet link below gives a basic explanation.

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« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2009, 05:59:21 pm »
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Quote:Posted by homefire
Arizona just put a moratorium on mining claims.

The Greenies just don't want us to be able to do any thing that disturbs Mother Earth.!!!!

There has been study after study about the Salmon and all have shown dredging at the right time of year was beneficial. Cleaning the gravels, Laying new beds for the eggs to settle. And the story goes on.

These folks just live in there own little shells, Dad  Or the Government is paying there bills. If they had to scratch a living from the ground, it would be a different story.

They think we live in a Utopia world and every thing just magically materializes at the grocery store.




The guy that placed that ad has no idea where meat comes from... it sure is NOT "made" in the meat market... somebody had to kill an animal to make it.

Wait til the republicans get back in, then people can tar and feather greenies, with impunity!

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« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2009, 11:24:01 pm »
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It's not about saving the environment.  It's all about taking away the ability to recover gold that would enrich our personal wealth.  These liberal fascist cant stand the thought of someone being able to take care of themselves.  We should all have to depend on the government for all of our needs.

It is only going to get worse.

At a time when the economy is on the skids, the gov. should be PROMOTING gold prospecting.  Every ounce of gold recovered does nothing but add to the wealth of this country and our citizens.  The government proposes to get us out of this hole by borrowing from foreign governments and printing money.   Cry

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« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2009, 12:04:06 am »
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That add is great! Reminds me of a lady here when farmers were struggling said she had no sympathy for them because she got all her vegetables at the grocery store...  Grin Cheesy

On a more serious note this topic is exactly those people who want to stop anything that harms the environment. Most of them have never been outside except to pick up the newspaper off the lawn. The danger is that they are misinformed and righteously indignant, and the fact that there are a whole lot of em that can vote. Any small victory is acceptable to them as it adds to thier landslide of misinfo. If they had wolf packs in thier back yards eating fluffy the family dog they might change thier mind about saving the world. Every time I clean a campsight of garbage left by city folk I wonder if they kick off a check to greenpeace. 

On the bright side with the price of gold going up even hand equipment can bring in a decent bit. Just don't let em ban drywashers. Dust probably chokes the butterflies and grasshoppers I suppose....

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« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2009, 05:01:59 pm »
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Quote:Posted by Mark_NC
It's not about saving the environment.  It's all about taking away the ability to recover gold that would enrich our personal wealth.  These liberal fascist cant stand the thought of someone being able to take care of themselves.  We should all have to depend on the government for all of our needs.

It is only going to get worse.

At a time when the economy is on the skids, the gov. should be PROMOTING gold prospecting.  Every ounce of gold recovered does nothing but add to the wealth of this country and our citizens.  The government proposes to get us out of this hole by borrowing from foreign governments and printing money.   Cry


You have broached a dangerous subject.... good for you!!  Grin

I have to set you straight on one thing, though: leftists are the opposite of fascists, leftists are Marxists and communists, fascists are like Hitler and Mussolini.

Greenies are Marxist, because Marxism is the teory of control of the people!  Shocked

Gold, when I checked at noon, was $1102.20, so that means about $2.30 per grain and even if you only get 5 grains per pan, you have about $11.48 per pan. I can do 6 pans an hour, without rushing, for $68.88 per hour. So a 6 hour day = $413.33, of shoulder pain!   Shocked

If you have one of the Desert Fox style wheels, you can tip these to a flatter position, have less pain, and concentrate much faster.  Ooooh! I hope the price holds or increases by spring!

I am old enough to remember the *gold standard,* when it was illegal to hold gold, and when the price was fairly well fixed! It was actually worse than now! Feel sorry for all those thousands that slaved for $16 or $20 per ounce, from the time of the Yukon Rush to before WW2! Gold is now worth 30 more than when the value was cut free to float.
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Offline GoldDigger1950Topic starter
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« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2009, 05:08:30 pm »
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I'm fairly certain that when we went off the gold standard, the first price was fixed at $35.00 per ounce and remained there for a couple of years. I invested heavily in gold at that price in the 1960s just before the Hunt brothers went nuts and the prices rose a bit. Yes, the same guys who later tried to set the silver market on fire in the 1980s. Not burning fires, but price fixing.

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It's all about that moment when metal that hasn't seen the light of day for generations frees itself from the soil and presents itself to me.
Let's Talk Treasure!

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« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2009, 05:29:03 pm »
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Quote:Posted by GoldDigger1950
I'm fairly certain that when we went off the gold standard, the first price was fixed at $35.00 per ounce and remained there for a couple of years. I invested heavily in gold at that price in the 1960s just before the Hunt brothers went nuts and the prices rose a bit. Yes, the same guys who later tried to set the silver market on fire in the 1980s. Not burning fires, but price fixing.


Well, that was so long ago, I could not remember if it was $35 or $36 per oz, really does not matter now, what with the current price at over $1100!

The last time it was nearly this high, it did not last over winter... it was still good but not AS good!  Grin

Have to look at the price of platinum as my claim has about 7 to 10% platinum.  Kiss

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