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	Re: help « Reply #20 on: February 23, 2010, 07:45:57 pm »

i agree with xavier it's molded the lips on both sides are the the exact same no difference at all i want to say you guys have reinvigerated me for detecting i cant wait to start agian btw any tips on a cheap detector with minimum bells ans whistles?

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BitburgAggie_7377

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	Re: help « Reply #21 on: February 23, 2010, 10:29:27 pm »

I'm pretty sure that it is NOT a coin......the back of it looks like it has 3 parallel lines of lettering, which would be very unusual in a coin (taking a pencil rubbing on a light weight sheet of paper might confirm this). As for the front, the bird design is rather crude, but that could be a result of age and the fact probably isn't a coin. The double-headed eagle/phoenix is a common heraldic device throughout regions that were part of either the Holy Roman Empire or the Byzantine Empire (as well as Russia, as mentioned earlier)

Most representations of the Phoenix show the bird as having only one head, but since there is a strong school of thought that holds the image to be a Phoenix and not a double-headed eagle as most interpret it, and since Phoenix vs Eagle is not relevant in identifying the object at this point, I think we can safely concentrate on looking for double-headed heraldic birds when we try to resolve this mystery.......who knows we might also resolve the question of whether the holes were drilled later or part of the original manufacturing process once we identify what this is.

BA
You know, looking at the position of the holes relative to both the front and back designs, I'm going to retract some of my previous statements (at least temporarily).

I'm starting to think that this object STARTED life as a coin (the double-headed eagle/phoenix) and that the reverse was smoothed so that 2 or 3 line inscription on the "back" could be added. I think that AFTER the writing on the reverse was added, the holes were made (either by drilling or with a punch and form of some type) and the lettering became the main focus or "front" of the medallion......My reasoning for this is the holes are "square" to lettering, but NOT to the bird......which implies the lettering was the more important side--at least to the person who added the holes.

BA

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Cornfed

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	Re: help « Reply #22 on: February 23, 2010, 10:59:47 pm »

BA good call on the holes being square to the lettering, I did think it odd that the holes were not centered better on the eagle. So I gues now is the time I say that the holes were not molded into the coin.

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xavier

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	Re: help « Reply #23 on: February 24, 2010, 06:07:32 am »

Hi to you all

If you take the pic and enlarge it you will see that the diameter and height of the ring around the hole is all the same also you will note that the crown of the bird is on top of the ring surrounding the hole and the same goes for the tail of the bird if the hole was drilled the crown of the bird would not be there on the ring and even more so for the tail of the bird further more there would be NO ring if the hole was drilled. Now let us assume that the hole was punched with what ever tool the tool would have been of a cone shape meaning that the hole diameter would be smaller on the on side than the other and a ring of a very ruff and torn appearance would appear. The other side would be concaved if you still do not agree then get a coin (copper) and punch a hole in it and you will see the result NO ring. We can there for conclude that the holes are original.What I want to know is what is it made of?

Regards Xavier

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	Re: help « Reply #24 on: February 24, 2010, 06:57:39 am »

When the coin/medalion is turned around it the reverse side upsidedown? If it is it may likely be a coin. If it was a medalion that was rivited to something the letters could be a maker or inscription. If it was a necklace it probobly would not have 2 holes.

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rwaloven Topic starter

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	Re: help « Reply #25 on: February 24, 2010, 07:52:34 am »

it looks like copper but seems to weigh more when i dug it out of the ground (it was about 7 inches deep) it wasnt corroded just dirty i just washed it off pretty much im not sure if that helps any i dug this like 7 years ago

thanks Rwaloven

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	Re: help « Reply #26 on: February 24, 2010, 10:31:04 am »

Xavier, I agree with you in part. I think the holes were put in as part of the stamping process that added the lettering. What lettering remains clearly looks to be raised rather than incised. However, the if the holes were meant to be part of the original piece, the eagle either should have been smaller or some other arrangement of the holes should have been made to make the entire item more aesthetically pleasing. Therefore, I think we're dealing with a re-strike.

This is theory based on what I observe, so I could be way off base. I think that a metalsmith was given an order for a quantity of medallions all bearing the same inscription. I also think he either had or was given a quantity of coins of the appropriate size (our two headed bird). He then ground of the back side of the coins, leaving only the side with the bird. While this was going on, he created a pair of die. One of the die would be blank (possibly slightly concave) except for the portions necessary to create the hole and the surrounding collar. The other die would contain the lettering that was being added as well as the the "mirror" portions of the hole. The coins would then be heated enough that they would accept the stamping, but not eliminate all of the detail on the original side. The metal smith would place the coin bird side down on the "blank" die, line up the holes (using a couple of marks probably), and hand hammer the top die with the lettering. The result would be our item with traces of the original bird engraving on the collars of the hole on the "front" and letters that are more weakly struck on the "reverse" but which line up better with the holes.

If this is the case, then we are NOT dealing with a one off item.....but rather an item that was produced in quantity (even though it may have been fifty or less). And if it was produced in quantity, then it is possible that at least one more example of this item exists....which would make identification easier.

BA

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Cornfed

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	Re: help « Reply #27 on: February 24, 2010, 11:07:00 am »

Could you use acid (lightly) on the lettering side to "bring back" the lettering like you can do on firearms to see the ground off numbers. I know that it might decrease the value some but then again it might not due to the revealing on the writing? Just a thought.

In doing so if the letter came back might be able to tell the origin of the "coin" from the lettering?

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xavier

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	Re: help « Reply #28 on: February 24, 2010, 11:29:43 am »

I think that you are on the right track BA but then there is added material for the rings.
I took a coin and drilled a hole in it then I took a sharp punch and made a hole this is what it looks like Ho by the way I did the punching on teak railway sleeper a very hard wood. I would not be surprised if the medal is made of pewter if you take a needle and press it on the medal you should see the point going in the metal if it is a soft metal it would re-enforce the BA theory the other thing is that there is no wear and tear on those holes therefore it was not worn on a chain but was rather attached to something would be nice o know what.

Regards Xavier

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	Re: help « Reply #29 on: February 24, 2010, 11:32:03 am »

I'm enjoying this thread and puzzle. Roger, I know you said you found it at an old farm house - what state? The area where it was found might offer a clue. Sue

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